[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I was glad to see you were bringing back on topic.

Still very few posts these heads are technically a great race head, except they are aluminum.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

If they keep winning races does that make it a great race head?

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

I'm asking because I'm not familiar with them, but what machine work is needed for the IA-II or MR-1 to be ready to run? Are they not available from All Pontiac or KRE ready to run?

I'd like to see clear answers myself. Both manufacturers seem to have
sale prices and little to no mention of additional work required.
I've seen mention of "buy my block" ready to go and no mention of price differences.
I've certainly seen mention of extra work needed as far back as when paul Spotts did a write up of his 1st IA2. (maybe 10+ yrs ago or more?)

My guess you get them semi finished(much like when you take a used unknown block to your shop) or optioned up to your exact needs.
Options add cost.
Your shop may be a more comfortable place for some of the options.

Personally I check everything after I get stuff from a shop before I assemble just for peace of mind.

[PAUL K]

The aftermarket Pontiac blocks aren't much different than the blocks from other manufacturers. The main saddles are usually sized within spec or require a slight hone. The cylinders if ordered at the size you need, just hone to fit. We perfer to set the deck height at a specific dimension so I've never checked if they are square, but they are close.We square them up and set the DH where we want it to be. The lifter bores usually need to be honed to size. Sometimes the block needs to be clearanced for the lifter tie bars to clear the valley. It's been a few years but the AP blocks required a considerable amount of cleaning. However EVERYTHING needs to be checked! Every once in a while you get an unpleasant surprise.

The "other" aftermarket engine blocks are far from perfect. My favorite is some of the SBC Dart blocks didn't have the oil drain holes in the lifter valley machined from the factory. I know two guys that found this out when they couldn't get their oil dipicksticks to read.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Paul Carter did a nice thread on an IA block someone bought and all the stuff he had to do to get it correct.
I am not bashing trust me, but as a guy a a very tight budget, if I knew the block just needed a piston bore to what I wanted, I would go for it. But needed line bore, cap work, deck work, not sure if they fixed it but oil galley work.
I am just saying I think more might buy it then.
I can not tell you my source, but he has looked at many blocks not 1 was a bore and go. They all need work from what I am told.
Please don't take this as anything but constructive critisizm

Someone on a tight budget shouldn't be trying to go FAST/QUICK! With going fast/quick comes added SAFTEY equipment.......that cost MONEY!



GTO George

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Someone on a tight budget shouldn't be trying to go FAST/QUICK! With going fast/quick comes added SAFTEY equipment.......that cost MONEY!



GTO George

George once again a non sense statement, fast to some is slow to others. Old Pontiac blocks are getting harder to find, the good ones anyway and guys want big $$ for a good specific block. Plus 40 year old iron that should only be bored 30 over makes good blocks scarce for whatever et you want to go.
Think a little before wanting to start chit.

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I will certainly stay tuned. If you are going to be pouring iron, please consider the iron head suggestion too. With your port designs, it seems like a slam dunk.

... I don't know if that's something we'd look at doing or not, iron is fairly cheap to pour though ...

[ho428]

Any time aftermarket blocks come up it spirals into wanting bigger and badder by a select few, which is an even smaller market.
I'd like to see easy to come by replacement blocks that are more affordable for the larger market.
Ford and Chevy as well as the aftermarket have continued making their blocks to this day while Pontiac was basically done by the mid-late 1970's yet tens if not hundreds of thousands of these Pontiac cars are still out there.
The initial market for Aluminum heads was said to be too limited, then it basically went nuts with rather than sink money into old iron heads (unless they're rare) it was a better option to go aluminum. No need to change to dished pistons to get pump gas compression either.
Now it's getting to where good Iron blocks are near impossible to find, so the guy with a broke Pontiac has his options limited. Scrounge for whatever he can find or go with 5 times the engine he needs.
Sure I'd like US made, but I'm talking 400-600 hp replacement engines here that also look more OEM, not 1000+ hp race engines.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

George once again a non sense statement, fast to some is slow to others. Old Pontiac blocks are getting harder to find, the good ones anyway and guys want big $$ for a good specific block. Plus 40 year old iron that should only be bored 30 over makes good blocks scarce for whatever et you want to go.
Think a little before wanting to start chit.

Everyone has an opinion, yours is WRONG but this a America so knock yourself out. Street guys alway want to make LOTS of HP cheaply but don't want to spend the money to do it correctly/safety, hey you guys can spit a rod or crankshaft out just as quickly as a Drag Racer. To QUOTE a movie "with great power come great responsibility" get over it!


GTO George

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by ho428

Any time aftermarket blocks come up it spirals into wanting bigger and badder by a select few, which is an even smaller market.
I'd like to see easy to come by replacement blocks that are more affordable for the larger market.
Ford and Chevy as well as the aftermarket have continued making their blocks to this day while Pontiac was basically done by the mid-late 1970's yet tens if not hundreds of thousands of these Pontiac cars are still out there.
The initial market for Aluminum heads was said to be too limited, then it basically went nuts with rather than sink money into old iron heads (unless they're rare) it was a better option to go aluminum. No need to change to dished pistons to get pump gas compression either.
Now it's getting to where good Iron blocks are near impossible to find, so the guy with a broke Pontiac has his options limited. Scrounge for whatever he can find or go with 5 times the engine he needs.
Sure I'd like US made, but I'm talking 400-600 hp replacement engines here that also look more OEM, not 1000+ hp race engines.

Exactly. That should be the target. I bet 99% of the engines built are under 700hp. If an aftermarket block was released with a lifter bore brace, dry sump provisions and splayed 4 bolt mains, they would fly off the shelves if the price was right. There's no need for an IAII or all the added weight that comes with in most cases.

[ho428]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Old Pontiac blocks are getting harder to find, the good ones anyway and guys want big $$ for a good specific block. Plus 40 year old iron that should only be bored 30 over makes good blocks scarce for whatever et you want to go.

I found a 4 bolt 400 block locally a few weeks ago. $650 and it was already bored .060, worn out and needed probably another .010 to clean it up.
That is a risky proposition to sink thousands of dollars into.

I understand the risk of investing in such an aftermarket block, the ones offered now can fill the bill but were mainly done for the racers.
I have no idea if it would be profitable, I think it would, but I'd just like to have the option.

My little .060 over 350 block has a sleeve in it, now that I see it has a busted piston I'd just as well build a 440 street engine using an Eagle cast crank rotating kit, nothing crazy, just a good street engine, but I don't want to go scrounging for another 400 block. Last time I took several into the shop to have vatted and fluxed just to find one that wasn't cracked.

[Half-Inch Stud]

A pilot said to me " you'll never hear a pilot say the plane has too much HP".

Applies to our muscle cars bodies huh. High HP with Street manners, will require a block more reliable than the stock block.

Seems to me the PMD block HP was intentionally crowbar-limited by several Engineering-controlled features:

1: The thin-hoop lifter bores on the Passenger side.
2: The thinned Main webs, then drilled for 4-Bolt caps & delivered with 2-bolt caps.
3: The exhaust crossover in every CYL head.
3: I'm reminded of the 301 turbo block and heads...

[WARPed]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Paul Carter did a nice thread on an IA block someone bought and all the stuff he had to do to get it correct.
I am not bashing trust me, but as a guy a a very tight budget, if I knew the block just needed a piston bore to what I wanted, I would go for it. But needed line bore, cap work, deck work, not sure if they fixed it but oil galley work.
I am just saying I think more might buy it then.
I can not tell you my source, but he has looked at many blocks not 1 was a bore and go. They all need work from what I am told.
Please don't take this as anything but constructive critisizm

Just to help clarify this is true for all aftermarket blocks no mater who makes it; there are just too many different ways builders want their specs to have a off the shelf "drop in parts" block.

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

Exactly. That should be the target. I bet 99% of the engines built are under 700hp. If an aftermarket block was released with a lifter bore brace, dry sump provisions and splayed 4 bolt mains, they would fly off the shelves if the price was right. There's no need for an IAII or all the added weight that comes with in most cases.

this is about one of the dumbest posts I have seen. 1) why would someone building a motor with less than 700 hp even need a lifter bore brace, dry sump provisions and splayed 4 bolt mains? there are already 2 blocks out there (IA2 and MR1) that have that. 2) they would not fly off the shelves because people are cheap. scott esterle got summit to give a pontic group purchase on edelbrock heads about a dozen years ago that gave 10% off a set of heads and someone bitched that its "ONLY" 10%. where have you seen summit give anyone 10% off?
what price do you think they should sell for? why don't you lay out 250k plus and see how many you sell. if you want cheap, your in the wrong hobby

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by Jim Zeek

this is about one of the dumbest posts I have seen. 1) why would someone building a motor with less than 700 hp even need a lifter bore brace, dry sump provisions and splayed 4 bolt mains? there are already 2 blocks out there (IA2 and MR1) that have that. 2) they would not fly off the shelves because people are cheap. scott esterle got summit to give a pontic group purchase on edelbrock heads about a dozen years ago that gave 10% off a set of heads and someone bitched that its "ONLY" 10%. where have you seen summit give anyone 10% off?
what price do you think they should sell for? why don't you lay out 250k plus and see how many you sell. if you want cheap, your in the wrong hobby

-Why was the 330hp super duty released with dry sump provisions, lifter bore bracing and 4 bolt mains? It seems like PMD thought this was a good idea.

-I'm well aware that these aftermarket blocks exist. They also add a bunch of weight for a guy that wants a sturdy foundation and isn't planning on making crazy power.

-They would fly off the shelves if the price was right. It might even be a necessity eventually. I'm watching good early 400 blocks selling for anywhere from 250-500 bucks for a run of the mill 50 year old casting and they are all going to need 1000 bucks in machine work, plus 300 dollar 4 bolt caps if you want them. The days of plentiful 75 dollar 400 blocks is over it seems.

-A dozen years ago I wasn't buying Pontiac stuff....I was 22 and playing with SBC's and drinking cheap beer. Both of which have lots of options to choose from...which is nice.

-I have 0 interest in getting into the aftermarket block game

-Thanks for the sage financial advice

[ho428]

We have "race blocks" or 50 year old castings, "if" you can find one, that's it.
Hell, someone is even making new Iron flathead Ford blocks now. Yeah, they're 3 grand, but talk about a small niche market compared to Pontiac.

[bpenrod]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Everyone has an opinion, yours is WRONG but this a America so knock yourself out. Street guys alway want to make LOTS of HP cheaply but don't want to spend the money to do it correctly/safety, hey you guys can spit a rod or crankshaft out just as quickly as a Drag Racer. To QUOTE a movie "with great power come great responsibility" get over it!


GTO George

Do you get your water from the Flint Mi. water system?

[Stan Weiss]

The only way to see a Pontiac block for sale cheaper is to put together a large group buy. I am sure if 500 of your were to put down a non refundable deposit on a block that the manufacture could do a large run which would reduce his and your costs for that run of blocks.

Stan

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Everyone has an opinion, yours is WRONG but this a America so knock yourself out. Street guys alway want to make LOTS of HP cheaply but don't want to spend the money to do it correctly/safety, hey you guys can spit a rod or crankshaft out just as quickly as a Drag Racer. To QUOTE a movie "with great power come great responsibility" get over it!


GTO George

Read the post George, seems like alot of people agree with me. A bunch of street guys that do not want to race, would buy a GOOD block instead of working with 40 year old stuff.
We all know about saftey, not what this is about. Seems to me the big racers with all the safety stuff blow up more stuff than the street guy, even with diapers the oil tracks down. I know you were at Norwalk and witness this.
Carry on Georgie!

[JSPONT]

I just spent $750.00 just for splayed caps on a 1968 block. Machine work was done last year. I hate that there is pitting on the side of the block but can not spend 4-5k for an a/m block.
Before I did that I would buy a LS motor from a junk yard and add my turbo.
Think about another 10-20 years from now, good 400 blocks will be even harder to find.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Read the post George, seems like alot of people agree with me. A bunch of street guys that do not want to race, would buy a GOOD block instead of working with 40 year old stuff.
We all know about saftey, not what this is about. Seems to me the big racers with all the safety stuff blow up more stuff than the street guy, even with diapers the oil tracks down. I know you were at Norwalk and witness this.
Carry on Georgie!

A lot ......3.....4, it's like this you guys want to spend the money buying twin turbos, shinny aluminum valve covers, expensive wheels....etc BUT don't want to spend the money keeping it together or buy the safety equipment for your 1000 HP, 120+ mph blast with 20 lbs of boost down the E-WAY.......just saying! Something just doesnt make sense!



GTO George