Then and Now

[The Champ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
(by the way I have asked now 3 times,if the sbc was never invented would the LS1 be around) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it would. Cadillac introduced the OHV V8 in 1949. With or without the SBC, GM would have a current OHV V8. The fact that LS1 is a clean sheet of paper design only further substantiates that it's ancestory is more towards Cadillac than any other GM division.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
why..............did you post a pic of a Mustang 2 that is all you have.Why are you taking about that car. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a Mach I, and it's one of those venerable 105 HP versions that represent 50% of all years the Mach I was produced.

[Dragncar]

Champ,if any one thinks for one second that the LS1 would be around today if it were not for the sbc they are beond help.The lS1 is not "the" sbc it is the new Chevy small block,period.As soon as I figure out how to scan and post the page out of GMs catalog I will.You can only hide behind that weak "clean" sheet of paper" stuff so long.In the meantime I think I will vent on why real fans of Pontiac should hate Chevy.Back in the day(60s,70s)when Pontiac could build their own engines they had great men working for them(Delorean,Mackeller,Tom Nell).They were forward thinking men with big ideas.Remember Pontiac started the muscle car era in 64 and Chevy was not to happy about it.Pontiac wanted to be the fastest in GM,Many projects were snuffed out by Ed Cole,GMs boss and a guy who came up through Chevorletes Corvette program.Single Over Head Cam 428,Ram Air 5 and Ram Air 6 were dissalowed by Cole.Pontiacs enginers had big balls and wanted to build inovative powerful stuff.And not for special race only,but for production mass produced real world usage.It scared Chevy.Pontiacs old inline OHC six was nothing more than a test bed for what they realy wanted to build,a 500HP SOHC 428 that would blow Chevys doors off.Pontiac was set to go with it and Cole killed it.The Ram Air 5 400 made 500HP,Chevy and Cole could not have it,they had the power to kill it.Pontiac wanted to competewith its own 2 seater the Banshee.Only it would have had a Ram Air 6.A RA5 headed 428 with a 3 inch main forged crank and 2 fours.Same thing,Chevy was scared of what Pontiac raely wanted to build and hinderd them all they could.Our best motor ended up being a RA 4 with cast rods.These other two motors I am not shure what killed them.Pontiac was set to go with a RA4 455 in 71.Forged rod,10 to 1 455 with RA4 valvetrain.Never happend.The heads were 90 cc with a pusrod tube like the 73,74 SD 455.Some are still around.This stuff eventually became the SD455.Here is the kicker.In 70 Pontiac built a aluminum SOHC fuel injected 427 Hemi.Examples of all of these motors are still around to this day.These motors could have changed everything as far as American muscle cars.If Pontiac only could have been alowed to produce the motors that Nell and Mackeller worked so hard for they would have set the standard.And why should I get exited about some no frills pushrod LS1 when Pontiac built far more advanced motors over 30 years ago.The same guys (Chevy) who stopped Pontiac are putting their motor in a car that is not even a Pontiac and slapping GTO on it.It realy is a joke.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

Last time I checked, it only matters if PONTIAC says it is a GTO. They do, it matches and BEATS EVERYTHING the old one did in EVERY aspect, so I do too. If you don't, then you are the one in denial.

Please find me where GM calls it a CHEVROLET V8. Not magazines. magazines don't make the codes for the motors and they don't designate anything. The last PONTIAC was made in 1981, get over it.

why would GM call the LS1 a chevy engine when they put them in both chevy and pontiac? isnt the LS1 in the CTS-V as well? i forgot. but if so then thats 3 car makes that 1 engine is in. GM has to make all of these customers happy. so they call it a "GM" (chevy) engine. the only thing pontiac about the new gto is the badge. id hope afer 30+ years they can make it faster then the origional but still slower then imports. way to go GM. and at a price of $35,000 thats even better.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Champ,if any one thinks for one second that the LS1 would be around today if it were not for the sbc they are beond help.The lS1 is not "the" sbc it is the new Chevy small block,period.As soon as I figure out how to scan and post the page out of GMs catalog I will.You can only hide behind that weak "clean" sheet of paper" stuff so long.In the meantime I think I will vent on why real fans of Pontiac should hate Chevy.Back in the day(60s,70s)when Pontiac could build their own engines they had great men working for them(Delorean,Mackeller,Tom Nell).They were forward thinking men with big ideas.Remember Pontiac started the muscle car era in 64 and Chevy was not to happy about it.Pontiac wanted to be the fastest in GM,Many projects were snuffed out by Ed Cole,GMs boss and a guy who came up through Chevorletes Corvette program.Single Over Head Cam 428,Ram Air 5 and Ram Air 6 were dissalowed by Cole.Pontiacs enginers had big balls and wanted to build inovative powerful stuff.And not for special race only,but for production mass produced real world usage.It scared Chevy.Pontiacs old inline OHC six was nothing more than a test bed for what they realy wanted to build,a 500HP SOHC 428 that would blow Chevys doors off.Pontiac was set to go with it and Cole killed it.The Ram Air 5 400 made 500HP,Chevy and Cole could not have it,they had the power to kill it.Pontiac wanted to competewith its own 2 seater the Banshee.Only it would have had a Ram Air 6.A RA5 headed 428 with a 3 inch main forged crank and 2 fours.Same thing,Chevy was scared of what Pontiac raely wanted to build and hinderd them all they could.Our best motor ended up being a RA 4 with cast rods.These other two motors I am not shure what killed them.Pontiac was set to go with a RA4 455 in 71.Forged rod,10 to 1 455 with RA4 valvetrain.Never happend.The heads were 90 cc with a pusrod tube like the 73,74 SD 455.Some are still around.This stuff eventually became the SD455.Here is the kicker.In 70 Pontiac built a aluminum SOHC fuel injected 427 Hemi.Examples of all of these motors are still around to this day.These motors could have changed everything as far as American muscle cars.If Pontiac only could have been alowed to produce the motors that Nell and Mackeller worked so hard for they would have set the standard.And why should I get exited about some no frills pushrod LS1 when Pontiac built far more advanced motors over 30 years ago.The same guys (Chevy) who stopped Pontiac are putting their motor in a car that is not even a Pontiac and slapping GTO on it.It realy is a joke. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cant forget that GM wouldnt allow pontiac to put a 428 in the 68 or 69 GTO. pontiac was working on a DOHC 421 also. take a minute and read this site
http://www.pontiacheaven.org/about%2...c%20heaven.htm it has a lot of good info on it

[3 Deuce 64]

your comment brought a new light to the subject you are correct in saying theold GTO s blended in and I am guilty of saying the new ones look like a cavalier only I said a pregnate one and I mailed that info to corporate I said they totally missed the market as far as I was concerned and many of those who own and have owned GTOs I have had 25- 30 over the past 30 + years at one time I had 19 sitting here not bragging just a die hard GTO nut when the rumor hit the gossip networks I was excited than the mock up projection now that was a car nice looks diferent and special then I heard they were out stopped by the local dealer to see if they had any in Your standing next to it I was and I didn't even know it that was last year early summer I drove that car yesterday it is still on the dealers lot . they offered it to me for what they said was their cost 8500.00 off sticker . I have still along with a couple other a very nice and original 64 tri power 4 speed convert gren red black gut perfect combo I am proud of that car of all the goats I have or had she's my pride and joy and have owned her 28 years . so that said comparing all the gtos I have and have driven to my drive in the o4 I drove yesterday it was an auto brand new 130miles on it .It was stiff in ride and stering the seat felt comfortable but after my 15 to 20 min ride my legs were numb and it was hard for me to get out of the dash was nice to look at and very user friendly but I perfer the dash and fit and ride I have in my XR7 which runs darn good with the V8 in it .back on track after we got the 04 up to temp I asked the saleman the dealers owner son if I could push it he said that's what we are here for I have a favorite ramp in our area it starts out as a mild loop and then opens up to a very nice straight long shot to the 4 lane did the approach the same as I have done many times before about 25 mph and nailed it it has good pick set you back in the seat a bit all through the power range but i dropped it off at 90 mph because we were at the merge lane heres the other with my 64 trip car the same situation 105 mph time and again and I'm breaking hard to merge that's the facts . I wanted to have an 04 to park next to the 64 s I have 67 s and 68 but after yesterdays drive I would take the 24,000 they offered to sell it to me for and go buy another Real GTO maybe in a few years when the price drops down more because no one wants them I may pic one up just for the 64 -04 reason 40 years later but in all honesty I perfer the old ones flat out all cards on the table they are a better investment for the $$$ That's this mans thoughts One more thing I put in my last letter to corporate if they retroed the look to the 656667 yeras the 67 being the most popular body ever per surveys and do what Ford did with the stangs they would have a market killer even I would go for that but until then I'll drive the old ones but the new ones comming out brought attention to the old ones it's neat in the parades to see these younger kids pointing and excitingly saying there's a GTO cool car dude before the new ones came back out that wasn't happening

[Mr_GTO]

Dragncar, read it and weep.

http://gmhightechperformance.com/features/0405htp_ls2/

LS2: An Inside Look
We open it up to see what makes the new Gen IV small-block tick

By Barry Kluczyk


When it was introduced for the 1997 model year in the then-new fifth-generation Corvette, the Gen III small-block was indeed a revolution. It was the first redesign of the basic small-block architecture since Chevrolet introduced it in 1955.

Although it retained the characteristic 4.4-inch bore centers, there was nothing else really the same between the old and the new. Not surprisingly, there was some initial trepidation on the part of enthusiasts. After all, several generations had grown up with the ubiquitous small-block Chevy. Its performance, reliability and affordability were the measures against which other engines were compared.


It didn't take long, however, for those same enthusiasts to be swayed by the new LS1. Like the original small-block, it was powerful, reliable and has since proved itself a fantastic foundation for extracurricular horsepower exploration--heck, you can get an extra 100 horses out of an LS1 just by staring cross-eyed at it.
With the 2005 model year, the LS1 is superceded by the 6.0-liter LS2. It goes into the new 2005 Corvette, as well as the '05 Pontiac GTO and Chevy SSR. It's rated at 400 horsepower and 400 lb.-ft. of torque, with a high, 10.9:1 compression ratio and a 6500-rpm redline. GM calls the architecture for the LS2 (and its truck-oriented Vortec variants) the Gen IV small-block. We think that's a bit of a stretch (you'll understand why shortly), but it nevertheless opens a new chapter in late-model GM performance.

FAMILIAR FOUNDATION

Like we said, GM says the LS2 is built on the new Gen IV small-block architecture. The primary difference between it and the previous Gen III engines is a new block casting. It actually is just a revised version of the Gen III's cylinder case. In fact, the blocks are so similar that many of the Gen III parts carry over, including LS6-style cylinder heads used on the LS2. Here are the differences between the Gen III and Gen IV blocks: Aluminum and iron (truck) versions are cast with new oil galleries to facilitate Displacement on Demand technology (see sidebar story).

Engine knock sensors relocated from cylinder bank valley to external locations. Camshaft position sensor relocated from the rear of the block to the front. Cylinder bores increased from 3.90 inches to 4.00 inches (LS2 applications). Similar to the LS6 block, the PCV valve was moved from the rocker covers to inside the valley.

The remainder of the block's features, from the six-bolt main bearing cap design (four vertical bolts and two cross-bolts) and deep-skirted case remain unchanged.

At the bottom of the block, LS2 engines installed in Corvettes receive a revised oil pan. Redesigned interior baffles in the pan are designed to ensure an adequate oil supply to the oil pump pick-up during high-load cornering maneuvers. The previous Corvette/LS1 combination used a "gull wing" oil pan design, but oil starvation was an issue that more than one enthusiast encountered on the racetrack. With the new, wingless oil pan design, the Corvette's oil capacity is reduced from 6.5 quarts to 5.5 quarts (with a dry filter).

SHORT BLOCK

Complementing the revised engine block is a new reciprocating assembly for the LS2. The crankshaft still delivers a 3.62-inch stroke, but the pistons have a true flat-top design and rings with lower tension. Lower tension reduces friction to free up horsepower.

The LS2's pistons also have full floating wrist pins that help reduce the piston "slap" noise that's common to Gen III engines. Interestingly some customers, particularly truck owners, have complained about piston slap, but there's no real evidence to indicate it causes premature engine wear--we know of a couple Gen III-powered GMC pickups at the GM Proving Ground, outside Detroit, that each have more than 400,000 miles on their original Vortec engines.

Another LS6 carryover part is the high-lift camshaft, which helps greatly in the department covered by the next section of our story.

CYLINDER HEADS

The new, 6.0-liter LS2 taps into a pair of proven winners in the breathing department: the Corvette Z06-derived LS6 cylinder heads. Compared to the standard LS1 heads, the LS6-style lungs feature raised intake ports and a combustion chamber design with unshrouded valves. This design, GM claims, when combined with the engine's flat-top pistons, produces a more efficient swirl of the air/fuel mixture. This efficiency allows a higher, 10.9:1 compression ratio--vs. 10.1:1 on the LS1 and 10.5:1 on the LS6--helping the engine attain 400 horsepower and, we're told, better fuel economy than the smaller-displacement LS1.

Like the LS6, the LS2's valves measure 2.00 inches for the intake and 1.55 inches for the exhaust. The valve springs are designed to handle the engine's 6500-rpm rev range. It's the engine's comparatively high compression ratio--a level not seen in some time on a performance-oriented V-8--that surely will have turbo and supercharger manufacturers wondering how much boost can be put to the LS2 before it arrives at Detonation City. At first blush, we'd think not too much!

THROTTLE BODY AND INTAKE MANIFOLD

All Gen IV small-blocks receive a new throttle body; for the LS2 it's a huge, single-blade 90mm design that incorporates a motor to actuate the throttle's operation with electronic throttle control (ETC).

All LS2 engines will have electronic throttle control, which dispenses with the traditional cable-operated throttle operation. Instead, input from the gas pedal tells the computer how much throttle movement is needed.

Those with an extra-large throttle body on their high-powered LS1 (or LT1 for that matter) know that single-blade designs can be a little touchy, but GM says ETC helps ensure the big, 90mm throttle body provides smooth, predictable performance. It also eliminates the need for an idle air control motor, cruise control module and the "throttle relaxer" for traction control.

The LS2's throttle body is mounted to the intake manifold on a slight upward angle to reduce water puddling at the bottom of the throttle body. The manifold itself isn't revolutionary; just an evolution of the cross-over plenum design of the LS1 and LS6. As with the Gen III versions, the LS2's manifold is made from lightweight composite material and comes in basic black.

By the way, if you've ever questioned the efficiency of this manifold design, you'll want to take a look at the new, three-valve version of the 4.6 "cammer" motor in the coming '05 Mustang; its intake manifold looks nearly identical--including the front-and-center throttle body location--to the LS1/LS6/LS2 design.

EXHAUST MANIFOLDS

A new exhaust manifold design is used for the LS2, bringing a "best of both worlds" advantage--improved flow and reduced mass. GM tells us the new manifolds are fully one-third lighter than previous designs.

Much of the change comes from reducing the wall thickness of the manifold's outlets from 4mm to 3mm. This change contributed to the overall weight loss, while give the interior passages a 4 percent increase in flow.

There are other minor design tweaks, too, to accommodate revised emissions equipment, but it's the lighter, improved flow design that is the newsworthy item here.

ACCESSORIES AND IGNITION

Many components that are standard on the LS2 found their way into production on late versions of Gen III engines. The water pump, for example, carries over, but it is different from early LS1 engines. Its revised design, with improved sealing, is said to greatly reduce the chances of a leak (it weighs less, too). Also, a stronger timing chain was incorporated into Gen III production and it carries over to the Gen IV. All-new to the Gen IV engine, however, is an improved ignition coil pack system.

The ignition system is still a coil-near-plug design, but the coil packs are more efficient and require less energy to deliver virtually the same spark energy as the LS1's coil packs.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Yes, the LS2 has all the material to build on the success of the LS1 and take GM performance to exciting new levels. The rumors about the next Corvette Z06 model indicate the 400-horsepower level of the '05 engines is truly just the beginning.

[RandyW]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> lane did the approach the same as I have done many times before about 25 mph and nailed it it has good pick set you back in the seat a bit all through the power range but i dropped it off at 90 mph because we were at the merge lane heres the other with my 64 trip car the same situation 105 mph time and again and I'm breaking hard to merge that's the facts . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Either your '64 isn't stock or the '04 was the slowest one built! Are you sure the parking brake wasn't on?
I'm 52 and have owned both a '65 and '66 with WS engines, they were both quick and they would both lose to a new GTO if all are in stock trim.

[Dragncar]

I will be short and sweet today.The 04gto is not selling well because there are to many guys like me out there who see right through Pontiacs present day farce.It is ugly and does not deserve the name GTO.It has a Chevy motor and does not deserve the name GTO.It is just some car that GM slapped the name GTO all over it.A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there.Chevy guy friends of mine do not think of it as a real GTO.If it was I would be first in line to buy one.

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
I will be short and sweet today.The 04gto is not selling well because there are to many guys like me out there who see right through Pontiacs present day farce.It is ugly and does not deserve the name GTO.It has a Chevy motor and does not deserve the name GTO.It is just some car that GM slapped the name GTO all over it.A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there.Chevy guy friends of mine do not think of it as a real GTO.If it was I would be first in line to buy one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL, what's the matter, don't like the facts presented to you?

Ok, answer me this. Why doesn't it deserve the GTO name? Looks is subjective. Many here think the GTO of old was great looking. Many on the mopar board don't think it was good looking. SUBJECTIVE.

So, again, reasons?

Uh, the GM engine thing again. Get used to it the old pontiac engine isn't coming back. I guess the 82-92 Firebird were not real cars since they actually had CHEVY engines. What about the 79 with the 403 Olds? Was that real? Or was it a Camaro?

Pontiac says it is a GTO and that is all that really matters.

[Goat luver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
I will be short and sweet today.The 04gto is not selling well because there are to many guys like me out there who see right through Pontiacs present day farce.It is ugly and does not deserve the name GTO.It has a Chevy motor and does not deserve the name GTO.It is just some car that GM slapped the name GTO all over it.A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there.Chevy guy friends of mine do not think of it as a real GTO.If it was I would be first in line to buy one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, Yeah, whatever you say Mr LS1 expert

[rabon008]

To dragncar: I finally figured out why you're so ticked off. The Pontiac engines are gone forever and it really upsets you that GM finally designed and built an engine in 1997 that is superior in every way to anything Pontiac ever put in a car. GM finally got it right and it just eats you up inside that its better. So you have to call it a "Chevy". Well, call it whatever you like, the educated people who actually read engine specifications and dimensions know the differences. Sorry you're so frustrated and heartbroken that our GM engines are better.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

i hope with 26+ years of technology it would be a better engine. go ahead and take my 428 and put all the computer bs on it and it would be faster too. a computer can tune a lot better/faster then i can.

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i hope with 26+ years of technology it would be a better engine. go ahead and take my 428 and put all the computer bs on it and it would be faster too. a computer can tune a lot better/faster then i can. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, you almost admitted that the LS-1 is a better engine than your 428!

26+ years of technological improvements HAVE resulted in a better engine, even if it isn't painted blue.

So where's the problem?

[projectfolly]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
I will be short and sweet today.The 04gto is not selling well because there are to many guys like me out there who see right through Pontiacs present day farce.It is ugly and does not deserve the name GTO.It has a Chevy motor and does not deserve the name GTO.It is just some car that GM slapped the name GTO all over it.A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there.Chevy guy friends of mine do not think of it as a real GTO.If it was I would be first in line to buy one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Geeze, I didnt think my post would result in so much argument. Anyway, if GM was to do another new GTO, what would the GTO have to be for you to consider it worthy of your purchase, and therefore not a fraud ? Please be specific in terms of styling and powertrain.

[RandyW]

The Zeta platform GTO will be here by late '06, it will make all this bs moot!

[Dragncar]

Rabon(Mr-GTO I will get back to you later)I said awile ago that some peoplt just do not get it.You are one of them.You like to throw around the words "educated" and "engineer" a lot,well nice try it is not going to work.Try that stuff on somebody else."Better in every way" OK Mr.Engineer tell me what is better about a pushrod basic(LS1)engine when compaired to a SOHC hemi.NOTHING.Pontiac was not alowed to put such motors in thier cars.Chevy was scarred.Pontiac could not even put a plain 390 HP D port in a GTO or Bird beacause Chevy was so afraid.They put them in B bodies.Yes I am not happy that Pontiacs V8 is no longer around,but it is easy to tell me to get over it but tell that to the big dogs in the Pontiac high HP world and se how that goes for you.You seem to be glad the Pontiac V8 is no longer in production what does that make you.

[Dragncar]

Time to stir it up,so get your keyboards ready.Remember now boys and girls this is just my opinion but............All Pontiac enthusiast are not equal.At the top are names like Delorean,Mackeller,Nell and all of the great people trying to keep the Pontiac V8 alive and more powerful than it ever was.Guys risking their reputations and fortunes.The Butlers,Kaufmans,the guys at all Pontiac,DCI(I wonder how the majority of them feel about the new GTO,more than one has told me it was a mistake)These people are taking off where Pontiac was forced to stop developing their V8.Just think of where the motor would be if the hard work of Mackellar and Nell was alowed to pay off.And at the bottom of the barrel are the guys who put a BBC in a old GTO or Bird beacause they want to go fast.You know the type,guy puts in a BBC to run 11s or 10s,we have all seen themAnd I am not talking about someone who wants to run 7s.Next from the bottom are the people who install a late model engine(chevy) in a 69 Firebird beacause they want a modern FI motor.They think they are doing something cool when it ruins the car.I have seen some nice cars like this and they realy $uck.The are not smart enough to figure out how to do it with a real Pontiac V8.It is not hard to install electronic fuel injection,hyd roller cam ect in a Pontiac.Just takes effort.Next are the people who were rubbing their hands together waiting for the 04 GTO.The nerds of the Pontiac world.They just do not get it.Keep going up and you will find all of the loyal Pontiac fans,the ones who get it.And then you have all of the people who helped keep the Pontiac motor going when there were no aftermarker heads and blocks,Nunzi,Taylor,Spotts, Hand ect.All great men as far as I am concerned.So go on bring your 04 out to the track,some people will not mind but your car will get the cold shoulder from more than just a few.That is just the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it.That sentiment is just the reason the new gto will never be a big winner.

[pont3]

Hey dragncar, I have a pontiac 400 on a stand in my garage. When I blow up this pos ls1, I'm going to shoehorn the 400 into the 04. Could it get some respect then?

[Goat luver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Time to stir it up,so get your keyboards ready.Remember now boys and girls this is just my opinion but............All Pontiac enthusiast are not equal.At the top are names like Delorean,Mackeller,Nell and all of the great people trying to keep the Pontiac V8 alive and more powerful than it ever was.Guys risking their reputations and fortunes.The Butlers,Kaufmans,the guys at all Pontiac,DCI(I wonder how the majority of them feel about the new GTO,more than one has told me it was a mistake)These people are taking off where Pontiac was forced to stop developing their V8.Just think of where the motor would be if the hard work of Mackellar and Nell was alowed to pay off.And at the bottom of the barrel are the guys who put a BBC in a old GTO or Bird beacause they want to go fast.You know the type,guy puts in a BBC to run 11s or 10s,we have all seen themAnd I am not talking about someone who wants to run 7s.Next from the bottom are the people who install a late model engine(chevy) in a 69 Firebird beacause they want a modern FI motor.They think they are doing something cool when it ruins the car.I have seen some nice cars like this and they realy $uck.The are not smart enough to figure out how to do it with a real Pontiac V8.It is not hard to install electronic fuel injection,hyd roller cam ect in a Pontiac.Just takes effort.Next are the people who were rubbing their hands together waiting for the 04 GTO.The nerds of the Pontiac world.They just do not get it.Keep going up and you will find all of the loyal Pontiac fans,the ones who get it.And then you have all of the people who helped keep the Pontiac motor going when there were no aftermarker heads and blocks,Nunzi,Taylor,Spotts, Hand ect.All great men as far as I am concerned.So go on bring your 04 out to the track,some people will not mind but your car will get the cold shoulder from more than just a few.That is just the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it.That sentiment is just the reason the new gto will never be a big winner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Dragncar, just a small criticism with regard to your ramblings...... ever heard of paragraphs and spaces after periods? It would make it so much easier to read

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hey dragncar, I have a pontiac 400 on a stand in my garage. When I blow up this pos ls1, I'm going to shoehorn the 400 into the 04. Could it get some respect then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that would put you in the top category, you know, the "People who get it".

I guess, since I don't fit in in any of Dragoncars "categories" of Pontiac guys, that I am not a Pontiac guy, even though I own a '66 GTO tripower convertible and a 2004...... not to mention previously owning a '77 GP. a '69 428 GP, a '66 GTO hardtop and a 2001 Formula (which wasn't a real Pontiac either, since it had that inferior LS-1 in it).

You know, I really want to be a Pontiac guy..... I think I'll just sell the '04 and use my '66 for my daily driver, like a real Pontiac guy would. It'll LOVE that 370 mile roundtrip to work each week, and sitting in the airport parking lot for 3-4 days every week. I'll just get a second mortgage to pay for the gas and parts and hope it makes it.............