[ponchonlefty]

any of these gaskets brinel the heads?i guess what i am asking is on aluminum heads which gasket would be better?

[25stevem]

I have reused them ( 1016) without issue, but this was only on motors who’s head and block deck surface where cut to a near mirror finish.

In terms of sealing coolant and compression wise on my boosted motor I posted about only the head deck surfaces where freshly cut, the block deck surface was only cleaned up with a fine drill mounted Scotch brite pad and never had a issue with iron on iron.

Where I to run Aluminum heads I would change them at every re- assembly unless I had no choice.

[Hooter]

Rock auto occasionally runs a clearance on the 1016 gaskets. Bought a set for $20 each a couple months ago.

[blueghoast]

I reuse fel-pro gaskets all the time and thats with spraying 275 shot
of nitros to the motor with no issues. If the gaskets in good shape
there good enough for reuse.Also there is only about .004 thousants
differance in thickness between 8518 and 1016. Hope this helps.
Plus the gasket is already pre-squist. Just a thought.

GT

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 78w72

why are they a must? myself & countless others are running the felpro 1016 on alum heads with zero issues. my 467 is only at 10.75 comp but the head gaskets are doing fine fior 6-7 years now & lots of low 11sec drag strip runs & many street miles. dont see any signs or reasons that they arent acceptable for alum heads. my engine builder didnt mention anything about using them either.

Many times machine shops will finish the decks on a set of aluminum heads too coarse. Ideally, the deck on an aluminum head should be 250-400 rZ. If you are familiar with with roughness averages, 250-400 rZ is just about a mirror finish. If the head deck and the block deck are too rough the differing expansion and cooling rates of iron and aluminum can actually shred a conventional head gasket. MLS heads actually “shift” internally with the different expansion and contraction rates.

[Brentco]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I just put together a 400 with E-heads and David Butler recommended their own proprietary "Fitsgerald pattern" head gasket for it. It is a black composite on one side that goes toward the head and a thin steel shim that goes against the block. First time using it, but that's what he recommended so I am trying it. Reasonably priced and he was aware of my 10.25 compression ratio and projected 500+ expected HP. Might want to call them back and speak to David. Personally, not a big fan of Cometic gaskets in a 100% street application especially with antifreeze/coolant in the mix. I have found them to weep a little coolant and requiring stop leak for street use. If your making big HP, then you have to live with them. I generally run just water when using cometic gaskets. Check the Butler web site for the gaskets I am referring to.

I used those gaskets on a recent rebuild, 468 w/ e-heads. When they arrived I wasn’t impressed with the fit and finish, but went forward with them anyway. In pretty short order I burned through a gasket (and part of a head). I can’t say for sure it was the gasket’s fault, but this was with studs, heads properly torqued, about 10.5 compression, no significant overheating, etc. I know at least a couple of other guys on the forum stopped using those gaskets recently, and It makes me wonder if Butler’s manufacturer may be having some issues.

Of course, I can’t say enough good things about Butler, and they were great and really bent over backwards to make everything right. Again I can’t say for sure the gasket was the root cause, but just FYI.

I replaced them with the 1016s (actually had a set of Cometics too, but opted for the FelPros), and so far so good.

[mgarblik]

Thanks for the head's up, sort of. Looks pretty bad and was ready to burn through the next pair of cylinders as well. I guess I will find out soon enough.

[Brentco]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Thanks for the head's up, sort of. Looks pretty bad and was ready to burn through the next pair of cylinders as well. I guess I will find out soon enough.

Yeah I know you already have your engine together (and I really didn’t want to do any parade-raining). But I thought I better speak up in case my the experience could be helpful to others looking at gasket options. And even if it was the gasket itself that caused the failure, which is by no means certain, it may have just been a defect in that particular gasket. When I was installing it I did notice the metal armor looked kind of uneven and maybe not formed quite right where it folds over.

[Verdoro 68]

This is tangential to what the OP asked, but since both came up in the thread, I happen to have a FelPro 8518 and a Butler head gasket sitting around. I thought it might be useful to someone down the line to show a comparison.

The Butler gasket is roughly .030 thicker to start and has more precise holes for coolant presumably to provide more sealing surface. They say it crushes to .045, and I think the FelPro crushes to .040.

[krisr]

I’ve had those Butler gaskets in my 400 with e-heads for years now without any issues whatsoever. It’s a nothing special 500ish hp engine primarily street driven.


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[Cliff R]

I've had the Butler gaskets sent here several times with engine "kits" folks bought and hired me to assemble. I never used them because they were too thick for my liking.

NO Pontiac engine goes together here with more than .040" quench in it. Pontiac engines more than most, especially with factory iron heads are very particular to quench distance. Without exception every single running hot, overheating, pinging on pump gas Pontiac engine brought here had the pistons WAY down int the holes at TDC and a LOT of quench in them. It's a pretty big piece of the puzzle when it comes to optimum power and efficiency so I stick to the rules and keep them under .040".....IMHO

I still remember the days when we had these engines making so much heat you'd be lucky to get thru a 15 minute "run-in" with them without boiling water all over the place, and many would run upwards of 200 degrees on hot summer days and you could watch the temperature gauge "creep" up to and past 200 degrees at stoplights, etc. Since establishing tight quench, plus making good camshaft choices and very precise tuning most have trouble getting up to temperature instead......something to ponder on when it comes to this topic............Cliff.......

[78w72]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Many times machine shops will finish the decks on a set of aluminum heads too coarse. Ideally, the deck on an aluminum head should be 250-400 rZ. If you are familiar with with roughness averages, 250-400 rZ is just about a mirror finish. If the head deck and the block deck are too rough the differing expansion and cooling rates of iron and aluminum can actually shred a conventional head gasket. MLS heads actually “shift” internally with the different expansion and contraction rates.

thanks for the info, good points on the finish roughness but you'd think most reputable machine shops would know about proper finish for any given head/block combo. nothing wrong with using cometics but that doesnt really qualify as "a must" to use them though. sounds like everyone commenting thats used 1016 or the cheaper 8518 gaskets say they do just fine on many different power levels.

[mgarblik]

My thought process using the Butler gasket was this. If you look at the pics, I like the fact that the Butler gasket has smaller water holes that match the block better than the FelPro and those holes are much further away from the armor. Also liked the idea of the gasket being able to shear within itself with the aluminum heads, similar to a Cometic. I would have used Cometics, but haven't had the best luck with antifreeze/Cometic/aluminum head combination. I have the pistons set to 0 +.002". So quench should be .040"-.043". If these gaskets fail, I will probably go back to Fel-Pro 1016's. I have had excellent luck with them and probably should have gone that route after seeing the failed Butler gasket pics. As soon as my carb. linkage get's here for the bathtub replica intake, I am ready to dyno.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

My thought process using the Butler gasket was this. If you look at the pics, I like the fact that the Butler gasket has smaller water holes that match the block better than the FelPro and those holes are much further away from the armor.

Those are the same holes Jim B unsuccessfully asked Fel-pro to change on the 1016.

Don't give your decision to use the Butler gasket a second thought, they won't cause a problem.

The first place a Pontiac head gasket fails is between the two center cylinders. The second will be at those water holes you mentioned. However that usually isn't a problem until you start making enough cylinder pressure to stress that area. Generally we try to stay away from the Cometics unless it's a combination that requires them. Over time, I've seen the Cometics weep water especially with aluminum on iron combinations. One may not know the gasket is leaking but it's common to see water stains leaking from a water hole into a cylinder or towards a head bolt hole. Since it doesn't cause an issue and goes undetected I'm assuming it's happening during the engine warm up time, just like copper head gasket may leak. Once the engine is hot all is good.

Be sure to retorque the Butler gaskets after the initial break in period and it'd be a good idea to retorque them one more time after the engine sees some use.

[mgarblik]

I thought the re-torque would be important with those gaskets. Easy to do on the dyno, Pretty difficult in the car. The two front lower head bolts on the right side I had to modify for generator bracket. It's a large, heavy 1/4" thick steel bracket. Took the ARP bolts and welded studs to the bolt heads . Easy with the generator off.

[i82much]

i have cometics on a pump gas 505 with older round port e-heads. if it leaks coolant somewhere, i don't know it. if i have to tear it down one day i will look closely. was able to reuse them once after light usage.

previously blew one of the fel pro gaskets (not sure which) but that build was done by a shop that seemed to cause me a lot of other problems. my opinion is that the gasket probably was not the real issue ...