[abefromen]

So after pulling the trans for the third time I was able to take a look at the PP in action.

Had someone push down on the clutch pedal and the disc dropped. It is releasing as it should be. But with the trans installed and engine running it will not go into gear. As soon as I shut the engine down I can shift into any gear.

When I had the trans out on the bench a while back I took the shift cover off to change the gasket. Reinstalled the shift cover and bench shifted it thru all gears. Also had the tail shaft housing off too to change the rear bushing. Nothing in the main case was taken apart.

I'm ruling out a trans issue because it shifts fine when engine is off and when I had it on the bench.

Trans was not hard to install either. Went right in practically by hand. Didn't draw it into the bell with bolts.

Still searching for an answer.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Any chance the splines on the pilot shaft are bottoming out against the pilot bushing?

Clay

[400 Lemans]

Originally Posted by abefromen

So after pulling the trans for the third time I was able to take a look at the PP in action.

Had someone push down on the clutch pedal and the disc dropped. It is releasing as it should be. But with the trans installed and engine running it will not go into gear. As soon as I shut the engine down I can shift into any gear.

When I had the trans out on the bench a while back I took the shift cover off to change the gasket. Reinstalled the shift cover and bench shifted it thru all gears. Also had the tail shaft housing off too to change the rear bushing. Nothing in the main case was taken apart.

I'm ruling out a trans issue because it shifts fine when engine is off and when I had it on the bench.

Trans was not hard to install either. Went right in practically by hand. Didn't draw it into the bell with bolts.

Still searching for an answer.

Thats the same symptom's i had in a 69 c10. It was 3 speed in the floor and didn't want to go into first with the engine running. You could put pressure on the shifter and at the same time turn off the ignition off and it would drop right into first gear. Had ran the tranny a little low on lube at one time, but before that it always shifted fine. I always blamed it on synchronizers after that. Later i bought a Muncie m20 4 speed and swapped it out and left the same clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing in place untouched. Solved the problem.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Any chance the splines on the pilot shaft are bottoming out against the pilot bushing?

Clay

That's a good thought! I was focused on the clutch setup!


.

[Singleton]

You stated that the flywheel was brand new. Don't assume that it was surfaced correctly from the factory.

Several years ago I had a similar issue, difficult to place the trans into first gear, grinding going to reverse. Everything was Brand New, Autogear M22, Hurst shifter, fork, throw-out bearing, clutch disc/PP, and Hays flywheel, all new.

Tried everything I could think of to the fix the issue, adjustable throw-out bearing, adjustable pivot, different clutch linkage, nothing worked.

Finally, after a couple thousand miles of putting up with the gear grinding, I decided to change the clutch and pp to a different manufacturer. I doing so I also figured that I would take the NEW Hays flywheel to the local machinist and have it resurfaced, for the hell of it. Turns out the flywheel surface was WAY off, not close to being true. That was my issue the whole time, even with the clutch depressed, the high point of the flywheel was touching the clutch disc at every revolution, just enough to keep the input shaft slowly spinning causing the gear grinding in reverse and the difficulty going into 1st gear.

So don't assume the new flywheel is true.

[HWYSTR455]

Very true on the surface, and to add to that, balance too.

I've never seen one so far out on surface runout to cause dis/engagement issues, but it could happen.



.

[abefromen]

[QUOTE="QUICK-SILVER";6457711]Any chance the splines on the pilot shaft are bottoming out against the pilot bushing?

I considered this too. I put grease on the nose of the input before installing the trans as always. It was dark moly lube type. When I took the trans out yesterday I looked at it and there was a "ring" of grease about midway or maybe a little further up towards the trans on the nose which told me it was not jammed all the way into the pilot bushing. I also test fit the bushing on the input nose to make sure it was not tight and when I drove it in I made sure it was in as far as it could go. It was flush with the hole in the crank.

Originally Posted by Singleton

You stated that the flywheel was brand new. Don't assume that it was surfaced correctly from the factory.

Several years ago I had a similar issue, difficult to place the trans into first gear, grinding going to reverse. Everything was Brand New, Autogear M22, Hurst shifter, fork, throw-out bearing, clutch disc/PP, and Hays flywheel, all new.

Tried everything I could think of to the fix the issue, adjustable throw-out bearing, adjustable pivot, different clutch linkage, nothing worked.

Finally, after a couple thousand miles of putting up with the gear grinding, I decided to change the clutch and pp to a different manufacturer. I doing so I also figured that I would take the NEW Hays flywheel to the local machinist and have it resurfaced, for the hell of it. Turns out the flywheel surface was WAY off, not close to being true. That was my issue the whole time, even with the clutch depressed, the high point of the flywheel was touching the clutch disc at every revolution, just enough to keep the input shaft slowly spinning causing the gear grinding in reverse and the difficulty going into 1st gear.

So don't assume the new flywheel is true.

Could it be so uneven that it won't allow gear engagement? I guess anything is possible because it is an offshore made part. Do you think your issue could have been the first clutch you were using and went away with the replacement and not really a flywheel prob?
...

[Singleton]

[QUOTE=abefromen;6457741]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Could it be so uneven that it won't allow gear engagement? I guess anything is possible because it is an offshore made part.
...

With mine, I could put the trans in 1st gear, but had to be VERY forceful with it. With engine not running it went to 1st easily. Reverse grinded everytime.

The machinist said that the flywheel was one of the worst he ever saw, and it was a brand name Hays, so yes, an offshore flywheel could be an issue. For nearly two years I tried everything to fix the issue. Had the trans out several times, different height throw-out bearings, forks, linkage, etc. Tried anything to get more of a disengagement, and I did get more, but it was never enough to fully cure the problem. I did use a different clutch/pp, but the issue was the flywheel. The original clutch/pp went into a different car soon after and had no issues.

Now I'm not going to say that the flywheel is definitely your problem, but just pointing out that you shouldn't overlook it.

[abefromen]

Originally Posted by Singleton

With mine, I could put the trans in 1st gear, but had to be VERY forceful with it. With engine not running it went to 1st easily. Reverse grinded everytime.

The machinist said that the flywheel was one of the worst he ever saw, and it was a brand name Hays, so yes, an offshore flywheel could be an issue. For nearly two years I tried everything to fix the issue. Had the trans out several times, different height throw-out bearings, forks, linkage, etc. Tried anything to get more of a disengagement, and I did get more, but it was never enough to fully cure the problem. I did use a different clutch/pp, but the issue was the flywheel. The original clutch/pp went into a different car soon after and had no issues.

Now I'm not going to say that the flywheel is definitely your problem, but just pointing out that you shouldn't overlook it.

Since it's all apart and staring me in the face I'll take it off and have it checked. Thanx for that suggestion.

[Scott Thelander]

pull the pressure plate off and inspect the disc and parts

[HWYSTR455]

You can lay a straight edge across the face of the flywheel at different points, use a feeler gauge to check runout.


EDIT: Same with the pressure plate too
.

[HWYSTR455]

[QUOTE=Singleton;6457747]

Originally Posted by abefromen

With mine, I could put the trans in 1st gear, but had to be VERY forceful with it. With engine not running it went to 1st easily. Reverse grinded everytime.

.

Just to say it out loud, you should always shift into 1st before you go into reverse, reverse is not synchronized.

.

[Singleton]

[QUOTE=HWYSTR455;6457786]

Originally Posted by Singleton

Just to say it out loud, you should always shift into 1st before you go into reverse, reverse is not synchronized..

Definitely, but if the input shaft starts turning again after going to 1st because of a partially engaged clutch disc, it's still going to grind in rev.

[abefromen]

[QUOTE=HWYSTR455;6457786]

Originally Posted by Singleton

Just to say it out loud, you should always shift into 1st before you go into reverse, reverse is not synchronized.

.

I remember a service bulletin regarding the grinding going into reverse. GM pretty much said it was normal and the trans needed "spin down time" after going from a forward gear to reverse to avoid gear clash.

My reverse gear and reverse idler were in surprisingly good shape. Trans is original to the car with 104K on it. I've seen some on Muncies ans ST10's that were really chewed.

[abefromen]

UPDATE:

Took the flywheel into a shop Friday and explained the situation. He checked it out and said it was a little wavy but nothing that would cause a clutch to hang up. I had it resurfaced anyway.

The problem turned out to be pilot error. Literally.

The pilot needed to be driven in a bit more than it was because it was contacting the input and turning it when the engine was running. I was more diligent when shoving the trans in this time and noticed it wasn't quite flush with the bell. Removed the bell & clutch and tried putting trans in with just the bell. No go...........took my bearing driver and hammer and banged the bushing in past flush. Test fit again and trans was flush with bell this time. I was surprised how close the tolerance was with this sbc.

Kinda odd because it felt solid to me when I hammered it in originally. I thought I hit bottom and that was it. It was also flush with the hole in the crank which is as far as I ever put a pilot bearing/bushing in any Pontiac engine I ever did before.

Thanks for all the help.