[P@blo]

Someone should burn that herb Adams instruction where he is torching a coil spring. Unbelievable!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by P@blo

I cut my moog 590 coil springs 1 full coil and followed the Eaton spring cutting instructions. They clearly stated that do not heat the spring for any reason so I cut and installed.

Herb Adams was a great engineer but there are threads out there of his rear mod on a leaf spring cars breaking the mounts. There's just not enough material there after relocating the leaf spring pivot point. Too me this is dangerous giving marginal improvements at the expense of safety.

Same case where herb suggets heating a coil spring after cutting to lay it back down. If you think of how hot the metal gets 2 or 3 inches on either side of the spot you heat you have changed the way the spring will now function.

Something worth considering is the spring is in a compressed state it will already be "laying flat" when installed. Once located in the pocket the spring also stays put in relation to the inspection holes as well.

No heat on a coil spring and a torch should not ever be part of the coil cutting equation.

That's your opinion and just like belly buttons everyone has one.

Well I guess that you must have plenty of first hand experience with all the statements that you've made. In 1977 the 67 GTO pictured in my middle signature has not only the front coils cut with a torch and heated and reformed. The rear coils are also cut and I formed the eyelets on the top with a torch so they would sit on the upper spring mount. Notice the car is receiving the checkered flag ultimately because I won that race. In 2 years that car won 13 races even though according to your statements I ruined not only the front springs, I also ruined the rear springs. I must have been incredibly lucky to be able to win even one race with springs I ruined on all 4 corners of the car(according to your statements) . The cars should have driven like a buckboard and been so unsafe, that I endangered everyone on the track around me.

Over the years I have probably ruined dozens of springs with my inept way that I shorten springs. Good thing I'm soooo lucky.

The truth is that car (67 GTO) handled so well that I put a novice first time driver in it, and if the steering box hadn't broken on the last lap of the race he was in, he would have won the feature race that night. Leading with one lap to go and he ran off the track in turn 2 because the gear in the steering box broke.

I have a 1973 T/A that I made the Herb Adams modifications to in 1979 cut the front springs flattened the bottom 1/2 coil following Herb Adams magazine article, modified and relocated the rear spring hangers. In 1980 I ran the Misery Bay region SCCA autocross with said car and was able to place first in 4 out of 6 events and was second in the other 2 events. I won the class Championship in 1980 for the region.

The car was classed in C Prepared and I ran Good Year 10 inch wide blue streak tires on the rear of the car with 8.5 tires on the front. The car was also ran daily on the street. I still own the car and the spring hangers haven't changed since the day I installed the rear springs with Moroso aluminum front eye bushings. Seems to me with sticky tires of the rear axle would pretty much prove that the hangers aren't in any jeopardy of disintegrating as you say they will.

One other actual experience first hand, 1971 firebird dirt car that had the spring hanger modification was hit broadside so hard that the roll cage uprights bent, the rear axle housing was bent, and the driver got 2 broken ribs and a collapsed lung. The car was totaled, but we removed the rear springs from the car before it was sent to the junkyard, and guess what, the rear spring hangers were still intact even though the floor sheetmetal was ripped up. Gotta call bullsh!t after seeing the side force the hangers withstood.

I didn't form my opinions by reading someone else's opinions on the internet. I raced these cars and built and modified them myself. I know first hand what I did how the car performed and how it got to victory lane. Anything I post on PY is first hand information, gained the hard way, not what someone said on the internet or 3rd party testimony from Joe Blows uncle. I did the work myself, assembled it myself and usually drove it myself. All first hand information, not opinions.

I suggest you look up Mr. Herb Adams and tell him what you really think about his engineering skills. After all, he has only, ran racecars at Daytona, Limerock and a bunch of other race courses and was pretty successful for a privateer. He also sold Fire Ams with the modifications you say are so dangerous, and has built a few kit cars and had a successful aftermarket business after he left GM as a suspension engineer. I'm sure you can teach him more than a few things though.............

[P@blo]

I remember borrowing a friend's Jimmy some years ago and got caught in a snow storm in the UP. Roads were terrible and were worsening by the minute. Anyhow long story short I noticed a 4X4 button and engaged the system. What a difference it made having all 4 tires working in my favor and was blowing by people left and right and continued along my merry way.

I get home eventually and was telling my friend how impressed I was with the Jimmys offroad performance at which point he explains the truck only has 2wd. Apparently the 4X4 was kaput years ago but in my mind it was working great

Don't torch your springs or your belly button

[Sirrotica]

You might actually be able to win races as facts prove beyond a doubt, the proof is there. Torching and reconfiguring springs actually works, done properly as is described.

It isn't a stretch of the imagination that you didn't know the difference between 2 and 4 wheel drive in a snow storm.

I deal in facts, not conjecture, you seem to think conjecture proves something, see if you can win a race with conjecture......................
"When the green flag drops, the bullsh!t stops".

As my father used to say quite often "Can't, never got a damn thing accomplished". He was right.

If I had listened to all the naysayers, I would have never tried to race Pontiacs, re configure coil springs, or many other things I have accomplished successfully. It's easy to quote other people and actually start to believe their drivel without any proof.

Like someone telling me they didn't know the difference between 2 and 4 wheel drive in a snow storm......................

[P@blo]

Bad grammar aside I stand by what I posted and hope you eventally get to a time machine. That should at least get you to the 90's.

And if we stick to the facts you are arguing to both cut a coil spring and to heat the same spring with a torch. I am saying you are wrong.

[Sirrotica]

You base your statements on what? here say on the internet?

No facts, just bluster, no results, nothing to backup anything you say.

If you even bothered to read all of the postings there are many that condone the method that Herb Adams used. They actually explained their reasons that the method works and have actually used the method with no ill side effects. Heating the spring while in the car to lower it is what the references are about, not heating the pigtail to lay it flat after it is cut.

This is a earlier post in this same thread, a direct quote from a Pro Touring supplier that has no problem with the Herb Adams shortening method:

what I'm saying is not heat up the main part of the coil, see there is this lazy mans trick to lowering a car by getting under the car and using a torch to heat up an accessible part of the spring, get it red hot and the spring will sag and the front will come down but you now have a soft section of active coils, what Herb showed to do is fine because it is done to the end coil that is inactive and is supported.
__________________
www.pro-touringf-body.com

If you check the date of his post it's December 2009, well past your 90s reference. it worked in the 70s and it still works in the 21st century. So much for your statements that it's no longer a valid use in recent years.....................

He explains exactly what isn't a proper method, It's heating the main part of the spring to lower a car, not flattening out the bottom 1/2 coil to get it to follow the original contour before the cut.

Having done it many times, there is no problem years later, no reason to critique the method that works as it is explained. There is no one that says Mr. Adams method can't won't work that can cite any actual reasons, other than they read it somewhere on the internet. No one that says it shouldn't be done, ever did it.

The major misunderstanding is between cutting the spring wire and re contouring the bottom 1/2 coil. Heating the main part of the spring to remove the temper hence lowering the car with the spring installed, two completely different operations. Although in a pinch I have heated a spring to lower a car as a temporary measure, I fully know that it does ruin the temper of the spring, and it does render a spring useless after it'd heated. That is NOT the method I use, and anyone that can read, and comprehend English, can differentiate between the two different methods.

If me being wrong is so important to you, then fine I'm wrong. The fact of the matter if right or wrong my efforts speak for themselves, I still have all the trophies from WINNING many races using the aforementioned process. As Trump says, I never get tired of WINNING................

[P@blo]

No heat on a spring and cut it with a zip disk. Your whole argument is HA does it this way so it's right does not take into account your own thought process and logic.

Hopefully you didn't miss too many wins taking the time to type all these long winded posts where you quote your papi and even the president. Which have nothing to do with cutting springs by the way lol

[amcmike]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Hopefully you didn't miss too many wins taking the time to type all these long winded posts

Which you obviously didn't bother to read in it's entirety because you missed a key piece of information.


"what Herb showed to do is fine because it is done to the end coil that is inactive and is supported. "
__________________
www.pro-touringf-body.com


As long as you keep the heat limited to the bottom coil which is inactive, it has no effect on the rest of the coil. Big difference.

[Sirrotica]

Thank You AMC Mike, at least someone has some reading comprehension, and common sense...........

I still see no experience, or logic, to refute why Herb Adams process is inferior.

It's probably a torch envy thing.............LMAO

[Geoff]

Somebody mentioned Trump. Can you clone him & send him here!!

[68ragtop]

Well, cutting them didn't work. I cut 3/4" off which was one full coil. Re-painted & installed. The spring arcs out too far with out the tight winding on the bottom. Now the shock hits the spring at full droop. Close, but just touches. Thats not going to fly.

Looks like I will be ordering more springs.



.

[78w72]

sorry to hear that. im not familiar with your car, but doing this on 2nd gen f-body cars works without any issue i have seen or read about over the years.

for your car maybe flattening the bottom coil would fix the issue you show? worth a try if you dont want to buy new springs yet. did you set the car on the ground to see how it sits?

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by 78w72

sorry to hear that. im not familiar with your car, but doing this on 2nd gen f-body cars works without any issue i have seen or read about over the years.

for your car maybe flattening the bottom coil would fix the issue you show? worth a try if you dont want to buy new springs yet. did you set the car on the ground to see how it sits?

I'm probably 6 months away from that. Just putting the chassis back together.

Seeing I already have it together, I am just going to leave it for now. At least if nothing else, I will find out where it sits & figure out what to do. No doubt they wouldn't rub with some weight on them, or if my bump stops where a little taller.

[694.1]

Brad Rocks.

Seems to me that those springs are just bizarre... maybe time to order from Eaton Spring?

[HWYSTR455]

Eaton sucks for springs just like Moog does.

.

[694.1]

"Eaton sucks for springs just like Moog does."
Perhaps you forge your own? That is a skill I have yet to develop...

[HWYSTR455]

I've been through using Eaton springs, and bought into their' sales comments on how they use 'factory blueprints'. Even if the ones they use are right (which they are not), it doesn't matter, because their' stuff is all over the board due to poor QA.

Like others, I come from a school of hard knocks, I actually tried stuff myself, and when it comes to springs, I had a graveyard of ones that didn't work. Search here on 'lean' and you will see. Why do they lean? Because uneven rates/etc from crappy QA/spring manufacturers.

Go to a circuit racing garage, and ask what they use. You think they are going to go to the local chain auto parts store and buy Moog springs?

Anyway, just to comment on the whole heating springs thing, what you do NOT do, and where people get confused, is heat the spring in the car to adjust ride height. Heating the end is totally acceptable. But just to say, I never flattened the ends and they sat right for me.

Only time I can remember when the springs curved like that was when they were too tall, which supports what 78w72 was trying to get thru my dyslexia.

Ok, original poster, as I said before, it takes multiple times of trimming & installing to get it right, and many times, you have to start over because of going too far. Save yourself the headache and buy correct, quality springs. $300 bucks, done.

.

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Ok, original poster, as I said before, it takes multiple times of trimming & installing to get it right, and many times, you have to start over because of going too far. Save yourself the headache and buy correct, quality springs. $300 bucks, done.

.

Thing is, that's what I did the first time. Coil spring specialties came highly recommended by other members from this forum. It was not about price. I think I got all four springs for $350-$400 powered coated? but that was 15 years ago. I can't remember anymore. If somebody could send me a set of springs that will sit perfect the first time for $300 & GUARANTEE it will work, I'd spend more than that. I just trust nothing at this point.

Now the suspensions already together, so I am going to at least see where it sits from here. I didn't torque down the ball joints, assuming things may come apart again. We will see. Also going to replace the upper a-arm bump stops. I re-used the originals as they where is physically perfect shape, but might be shorter. I believe that might be contributing to the arc of the spring. Left shock doesn't hit & that arm seems slightly higher on the bump stop. So I am not upset about that anymore.

My biggest fear is taking it apart again without scratching anything. not the easiest part of the car to do that with.

Thanks for everyone's input this far.

[Sirrotica]

The reason the spring is cocked is because you changed the type of end, from a square end, to a tangential end, by not laying the end coil over after it was cut like the original factory spring. The spring is now too tall on one side making it bow causing it not to be centered as shown by the shock position. Even with stock springs in an A body, many times they aren't centered because of uneven/unparalleled spring seats. The engineers designed it that way for whatever reason. The spring seats are only close to parallel when the ride height is way below factory specs.

I've read on here that many members have cut the lower coil off and not bothered to heat the lower half coil to lay it flat like the factory coil springs. I always lay the lower coil flat as I explained previously because of that reason. Turning the springs upside down side by side, will show the difference in the angle of the wire on a square end spring (factory style end) and one that was cut, without heating the bottom coil, converting it to a tangential end. Tangential ends are spaced so the distance between coils is uniform on all coils.

Since the chassis is constructed completely different on second Gen firebirds (the cars most often lowered by spring cutting). The A bodies already have the spring bowed outward with stock springs due to uneven spring seats. Changing the type of end from square to tangential further exasperates the problem. The second Gen Firebirds seem to be able to get away with it because the upper frame mount and the lower a frame at normal ride height are closer to parallel than the A bodies are at normal ride height. Changing the angle of the bottom coil by cutting it, does not allow the spring end to lay at the correct angle in the lower A frame spring seat, causing the spring to be too tall on one side.

In my opinion if you heated the lower 1/2 coil, and brought it back to a square end (the bottom coil flattened until it touches the second coil as shown in the Herb Adams article) it will sit closer to center as the factory designed it, and not be extremely bowed. That is the remedy I would use if it were a car I was working on, 68ragtop, or any others having problems with springs can choose whatever remedy they like.

[Poochie]

I was facing a similar dilemma when I put my first-gen back together. The original springs were done, and I had heard horror stories about 4x4 stances on replacement springs or having them settle. I went to a circle track outfit here and they helped me get things sorted out. The gist of it was new (in my case much stiffer) springs combined with an adjustable coil spring spacer. This allowed me to fine tune the ride height relatively easily.

Here's the shims I'm referring to:
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...him,33328.html

In my case the springs are 9.5" tall with a 5.0 " OD.