[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

1968 Pontiac Firebird - Too Hot For Stock?
How can this "stock" Ram Air II Firebird run 12s on Redlines?

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...tiac-firebird/

Stan

Wow, that article was written 18 years ago. Tony sold the Firebird to Rick Watson, who has been racing it at the Pure Stocks ever since. I don't think Rick has gotten it to go quite as quick as 12.30's, but I believe 12.50's consistently. The late Jim Mino ran as quick as 11.80 in his real RAII 4-speed '68 Bird when everything came together perfectly...launch, traction, hitting every gear, and weather. 12.0's to 12.20's were the norm at 114 mph.

At the Pure Stock drags the starting line is sprayed with traction compound ('glue') for the first 200' and reapplied several times during the day, so good track prep pays huge dividends to making low et's. Also, learning how to get the most out of your car and riding that fine line of traction and losing it.

Dennis

[Stan Weiss]

If anyone wants to see who is running what in Pure Stock. This link will let you checkout the results from different years.

https://www.psmcdr.com/pastyears

Stan

[grandam1979]

I have seen Ricks ram air II run 12.05 on the redlines at Milan on a good air day.

[SD455DJ]

Holy cow! I guess I had my 0 and 5 backwards! Thanks for clarifying that Tracy!

Dennis

[grandam1979]

Your correct at the pure stock races 50-60 that was a best in good air and good launch.

[ponyakr]

LOTS I don't know about the PS rules. So, I'll have to ask some "Dummy" questions.

From the article, here's the cam specs.

"...Indian Adventures cam with 228/234-degree duration at .050 with .476/.488 lift..."

OK, I ASSUMED that in PS, the cam rule would be VERY strict, not allowing any more lift or duration than the factory cam had.

But, since the factory 041 cam had only .about .469 total lift, @ the valve, with stock 1.5 ratio rockers, that would make the IA cam too big, with too much lift on both the intake & exhaust.

I know that NHRA allows more lift than the factory cam, in Stock Elim.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

(1) So, what is the current cam rule for PS ?

(2) Has any of the Pontiac PS cams ever been checked @ a PS race ?

(3) Does Jim Mino still hold the record for the quickest Pontiac powered PS car, ever ? If so, what, when & where ? If not, what car/driver is the quickest ever ?

(4) Will a '69 RAIV engine actually make a little more power, but not run quite as quick, because of the extra weight it must carry ?

(5) Seems I read that one reason the RAIV cars are slower is because of the 1.65 ratio rockers. If I understood it correctly, it said that the 1.65 rockers made the RAIV engine have less low rpm torque. Is this correct ?

(6) Any other reasons why the RAIV cars are slower.

I have to ask these questions, since Scott Burton's '70 RAIV Bird is the undisputed quickest Pontiac powered NHRA Stocker, ever. Assuming the PS rules are what makes the RA2 Birds quicker, in PS.

You guys who know PS, please feel free to give all the detailed explanation you can, about running a Pontiac in PS. I for one, would like to learn more of the details.

How often are the PS cars checked ? Are any torn down @ the race ? Are the quick cars protested by other PS racers ?

I saw a video which showed a car being required to load up & leave the race, because it ran quicker than 11.50. Reason given was because any car quicker than 11.50 must have roll bars, therefore would be ineligible for PS, & too quick to run at the track without roll bars. Is this correct ?

[ponyakr]

If I'm reading the chart correctly, the quickest legal pass was made by a 396/375hp '69 Chevelle, @ 11.59

Absolute low ET was 11.42, by a 426 Hemi GTX. That car got an immediate DQ, for going quicker than 11.50, I assume.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

Before Covid, back in 2019, looks like the quickest Pontiac was a '74 SD455 Formy @ 12.07.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

In 2018, a '69 RAIV GTO ran 12.10.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

In 2017, a '68 GTO ran 12.18, & a '69 RAIV Bird ran 12.28.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

In 2016, that same '68 GTO ran 12.14.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

If I'm reading the chart correctly, the quickest legal pass was made by a 396/375hp '69 Chevelle, @ 11.59

Absolute low ET was 11.42, by a 426 Hemi GTX. That car got an immediate DQ, for going quicker than 11.50, I assume.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

Before Covid, back in 2019, looks like the quickest Pontiac was a '74 SD455 Formy @ 12.07.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

In 2018, a '69 RAIV GTO ran 12.10.

https://cdn.website-editor.net/s/283...K2NXBXLF010TJW

The 11.50 Roll bar rule is from NHRA. If you run under 11.5 without a roll bar the track can not let you run again

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

LOTS I don't know about the PS rules. So, I'll have to ask some "Dummy" questions.

From the article, here's the cam specs.

"...Indian Adventures cam with 228/234-degree duration at .050 with .476/.488 lift..."

OK, I ASSUMED that in PS, the cam rule would be VERY strict, not allowing any more lift or duration than the factory cam had.

But, since the factory 041 cam had only .about .469 total lift, @ the valve, with stock 1.5 ratio rockers, that would make the IA cam too big, with too much lift on both the intake & exhaust.

I know that NHRA allows more lift than the factory cam, in Stock Elim.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

(1) So, what is the current cam rule for PS ?

(2) Has any of the Pontiac PS cams ever been checked @ a PS race ?

(3) Does Jim Mino still hold the record for the quickest Pontiac powered PS car, ever ? If so, what, when & where ? If not, what car/driver is the quickest ever ?

(4) Will a '69 RAIV engine actually make a little more power, but not run quite as quick, because of the extra weight it must carry ?

(5) Seems I read that one reason the RAIV cars are slower is because of the 1.65 ratio rockers. If I understood it correctly, it said that the 1.65 rockers made the RAIV engine have less low rpm torque. Is this correct ?

(6) Any other reasons why the RAIV cars are slower.

I have to ask these questions, since Scott Burton's '70 RAIV Bird is the undisputed quickest Pontiac powered NHRA Stocker, ever. Assuming the PS rules are what makes the RA2 Birds quicker, in PS.

You guys who know PS, please feel free to give all the detailed explanation you can, about running a Pontiac in PS. I for one, would like to learn more of the details.

How often are the PS cars checked ? Are any torn down @ the race ? Are the quick cars protested by other PS racers ?

I saw a video which showed a car being required to load up & leave the race, because it ran quicker than 11.50. Reason given was because any car quicker than 11.50 must have roll bars, therefore would be ineligible for PS, & too quick to run at the track without roll bars. Is this correct ?

I believe the cam rule is 0.050" duration and max lift must be within plus or minus 2% of the factory numbers.

Stan

[ponyakr]

" Camshaft

The camshaft must be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed for the type of lifter (hydraulic or solid). Roller cams NOT allowed. Duration at .050" lobe lift must be within 1% of factory specs. Lift at the valve must be within 2% of factory specs. Engines must be able to produce at least 16.0 inches of vacuum at 1200 rpm. However, some factory-produced engines were not able to generate 16.0 inches in showroom condition, so those cars will be given a variance to the rule. Solid-lifter cams lift checked at zero lash. "

When I use an online calculator to find a 2% larger valve lift, from the stock .469, I get .47838 max lift. IF I did it right, that IA cam exhaust lobe provided too much lift. Hey, I know it may be picky. But, I just don't know how close the PS tech guys require the cam spec to be. That's so close, that maybe nobody would care. BUT, knowing how competitive some guys are, I figure there is always the chance that somebody will object to even the very most minor infractions.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

" Camshaft

The camshaft must be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed for the type of lifter (hydraulic or solid). Roller cams NOT allowed. Duration at .050" lobe lift must be within 1% of factory specs. Lift at the valve must be within 2% of factory specs. Engines must be able to produce at least 16.0 inches of vacuum at 1200 rpm. However, some factory-produced engines were not able to generate 16.0 inches in showroom condition, so those cars will be given a variance to the rule. Solid-lifter cams lift checked at zero lash. "

When I use an online calculator to find a 2% larger valve lift, from the stock .469, I get .47838 max lift. IF I did it right, that IA cam exhaust lobe provided too much lift. Hey, I know it may be picky. But, I just don't know how close the PS tech guys require the cam spec to be. That's so close, that maybe nobody would care. BUT, knowing how competitive some guys are, I figure there is always the chance that somebody will object to even the very most minor infractions.

If you are referring to the article I posted a link to. It never said Pure Stock but said stock eliminator don't know if that means the same thing as Pure Stock or NHRA Stock.

Stan

[SD455DJ]

I (Dennis Jensen), along with my brother, Dan Jensen, and good friend, Lyndon Hughes, are the current organizers of the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race (PSMCDR, or Pure Stock Drags for short). Dan and Bob Boden were the original organizers way back in the 1990's. When Bob 'retired' from the pure stocks, Lyndon and I stepped in to help keep it going with Dan. This is definitely a niche, of a niche, of a niche group and is an event that is only held once a year in the same time & same place due to very limited appeal (and attendance). Others have tried to make it a national event with races across the USA and it hasn't worked out very well, or very long, due to that limited appeal by a very small group of enthusiasts. The PSMCDR started out small and grew with the help of Tom Shaw at MuscleCar Review magazine. He was the races biggest cheerleader and promoted it in the magazine with multiple articles each year of publication. In the beginning, we were very forthright on 'pure' stock, but cheaters abounded. So, we responded with very strict rules and even hired an NHRA 'cop' to perform checks on unusually quick cars (P&G for cubes, Whistler for compression, cam checkers for lift and duration, and durometer for tire compound). A number of those cheaters created the F.A.S.T. race when they weren't allowed to race at our event any longer.

In recent years, we've found that a big cam hasn't been the biggest contributor to good et's, but rather the smaller cams make torque, err go, that torque et's. First timers usually come with bigger than allowed cams, but we let them run (first year grace period), they quickly discover their cars don't run as well as they thought they should, and when they wonder why, we tell them the secret to better et's, for this kind of racing, is a stock profile cam and they will go quicker. We've had first timers come with big cams and loose convertors that blow the tires off at the line, and turn terrible times and, same story, change to a stock style smaller cam and stock tight convertor and they will run much better. The tires and traction are the great equalizers for this event.

Back to cam specs, we have now instituted a vacuum minimum rather than trying to make everyone run a factory ground cam. We are going to increase the vacuum minimum to 18" (from 16") at 1200 rpm. The cars we know that are quick and haven't gotten any quicker were checked years ago. We do check new cars and any car that really flies with more scrutiny. Most participants do follow the rules very closely as it is bragging rights to say your car adheres to the rules and turns great et's. Many racers are more than eager to tear their engine apart to prove it if challenged. There are always cars we watch and invite them to get full tech when they are going to quick for the combination.

Any car can run quick. It just takes a good engine build and lots of practice learning how to launch with minimal wheelspin. Suspension set up is critical too, and loose front ends do help. Good exhaust systems and new repop bias ply tires are key as well for making better power and launching strongly.

As for which Pontiac is the quickest, it depends. The RAII Firebirds are the clear winner due to an engine that makes almost the same hp, but more torque as a RAIV, but in a 300-400 lb lighter body. It's a hard to beat combination. The '69 RAIV Firebird would be real close, if not a tick quicker, but only one has shown up for the race and ran 12.0's best. I would love to see a '71 455HO Formula stripper with 3.73 gears and TH400. I think that is a high 11 second car when maxxed out per the rules. Certainly the 455HO T-37 is right there as well when dialed in.

Sorry for the long winded response. It probably will elicit more questions than it answered, but that's fine.

Dennis

[ponyakr]

Dennis, thanks a lot for that detailed explanation !

That explains the "current" rules, MUCH better than one can get, just by reading the written rules.

"...we have now instituted a vacuum minimum rather than trying to make everyone run a factory ground cam. We are going to increase the vacuum minimum to 18" (from 16") at 1200 rpm..."

So, I suppose the guys who wanna run really quick will figure out the best cam(& tuning) for their combo, that will show 18" vac, when checked. I can see how that will make checking a cam MUCH easier.

I ran some dirt tracks that had a cam vac rule, in the hobby class. I heard some wild sounding cams that passed the vac test. So, there are ways to increase vac reading, with a pretty healthy cam. Those who know how to make the most of the rules WITHOUT getting a DQ, will usually rise to the top of the field.

[SD455DJ]

We always tell anyone who is willing to listen, there is nothing to win at our race, not even a $5 plastic trophy, and you are racing against someone with the closest et to yours. We know the slowest guys have the most fun because they have the least invested (money and emotions) and aren't stressed about being the quickest, so have a lot more fun. You can spend as much money as you want, but we find those racers with the fastest cars are too serious and fret/whine too much. Now the goal for some is to run quicker than 11.50 so they are kicked out. Some one made T-shirts that say "TOO FAST TO RACE" for those that do run to quick at our race. While we understand it's only human nature to try to beat any rules, this race/event is no exception and many take on the challenge to beat the 11.50 rule. So far, no Pontiac has come close, except for Rick Mahoney's RAII Firebird (11.59). That car ran 11.30's in Maryland in November 'mine-shaft' air (1000' below sea level) several years ago!

Dennis

[ponyakr]

"...no Pontiac has come close, except for Rick Mahoney's RAII Firebird (11.59).."

Is there a link you could post where that time is posted ?

Was the car protested ?

This site said the car has gone 11.18.

"...Rick Mahoney’s cool ’68 Firebird, which he races in the Factory Stock class. Well, after the MIR event, Rick`s pretty Firebird is now the worlds fastest Pure Stocker smashing the ‘Vette`s 11.31 pass with an 11.18@122..."

Assuming that was NOT in a race where 11.50 is as quick as you can go, without being asked to leave.

[Stan Weiss]

1968 Ram Air 2 F.A.S.T. Firebird Breaks into the 9's !

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=797112

---------------------

The first GM entry and first Q-jet into the 9's in FAST.

We did the carb for both of Rick's Firebirds, he has another 1968 RAII car that runs 11.30's in Pure Stock.

https://cliffshighperformance.com/si...p?topic=3186.0

Stan

[ponyakr]

Mahoney has run 2 completely different Birds.

The Factory Stock/Pure Stock Bird has run low 11's.

The F.A.S.T. quick class car has run into the 9's.

[unruhjonny]

I understand the confusion all too well, and ended up deciding that I am building my car around the PSMCD rules;

Factory Stock/Pure stock = NHRA; their rules are printed and have some flexibiilty for cars never factory built (eg: 1970 RAIV Formula 400)

F.A.S.T. = in my book this one is essentailly a 'stock appearing' race where the deeper your pockets, the faster you go.; F.A.S.T. = Factory Appearing, Stock Tire; if it isn't seen or if it looks stock, you're good to go.

PSMCD = the group with the most stringent rules, and in my interpretation has the potential to be the funnest of the lot. It's all about your car, and essentially comes down to the hp/weight along with the driver.

The camshaft rule change has lessened, or almost eliminated my search for a good 067 cam for my car - I didn't want to go with the replacement, which is essentially a 066 cam, and the few 067 cams out there are not cheap. I had one gent here offer me an NOS one, but at the time I declined the offer.
This rule, as I see it should permit me to use a readily available 068 cam - this has no extra lift, but does have more duration, but may be a financially feasible step-in replacement camshaft.

[ponyakr]

"...The camshaft rule change has lessened, or almost eliminated my search for a good 067 cam for my car..."

Yes, and unless you just wanna run something that's similar to a factory grind, there is no good reason to run one, from a performance standpoint.

As was just recently posted, the NEW cam rule is a minimum vacuum requirement, ONLY.

That means to me that the lift & duration numbers of your cam does not make any difference, at all, from a rules infraction standpoint..

Instead, ONLY the vac number @ 1200rpm will be checked.

As mentioned, I learned from my dirt track days that you can run a pretty healthy cam, & still make the minimum vac requirement.

I've even seen some sbc dirt track cams advertised as cams that will make more vac, for classes with the min vac rule.

BUT, I've never seen any Pontiac cams that were specified as vac rule cams. So, you'd need to do some vac testing in your engine, with different cams, to find out how much cam you can use & still pass the vac test. I'm guessing that the size of the cam you can legally run will surprise you.

This cam testing would be VERY interesting to me. Wish I had the budget to take part in it myself. If I had the money, I'd even buy some possible cams for someone to try.

Maybe some of the experts here can post some of the decent high vac HFT cams they have tested.

I haven't ever really tried to learn what cam specs produce more or less vac. I assume that a bigger LSA would produce more vac. And I assume that variable duration lifters, like Rhoads, would increase vac @ 1200rpm. And, I assume that thinner oil will increase the bleed down rate. But, I'm no expert.

With all this in mind, I think the 1st cam I'd look at is the Summit 2802. It has a 114° LSA. With Rhoads lifters & thin oil, it MAY pass the vac rule. If not, it should at least let you know how close the vac is, either above or below the legal amount.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-2802

The Voodoo cams should also produce good vac, along with their good performance. A combination of Voodoo, Rhoads, & thinner oil MIGHT be a good high vac, high power combo.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...-10510702.html

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...-10510703.html

I've read that some cam co will grind a cam with a different LSA than advertised. So, if a particular cam would make big power, but just barely miss the vac min, it might be that an LSA increase of a few degrees, would make it a legal & good cam for this app.

I think I've also read that slightly advancing or retarding the cam timing can affect vac.

As mentioned, I think this is very interesting. You'd be trying to find the HFT cam that would produce the quickest ET in your car AND that would pass the vac test.

But, if min ET is not the goal, this info is useless.

[unruhjonny]

oh, I'm not interested in getting anything aftermarket or anything blatantly aftermarket for my car - rather I just wouldn't want to pay big bucks for an NOS cam, or to get one custom made if I don't have to.
One of the reason's why I like PSMCD is that it strives to have cars that are stone stock - but it also recognises that sometimes replacement wear items are tough to impossible to get - which is why there is some leaway.
If I find a good 067 cam for my '70 WT engine, I'll run it, but if I can't, I'm guessing a 068 (with the new rule) would be permissible.

Unlike you, I wasn't fortunate enough to see and hear these cars when new;
On some level, I want to see how these cars were when new;
I don't expect to be the fastest car around - if I was all about horsepower, late model Challenger SRT's make a whole lot more power than my Firebird.