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#1
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Help,Advice with ram air manifold and Pypes.
So back in late 2007-early 2008 when I first got my judge, I removed headers and open exhaust and put a more stock appearing and usable exhaust system on it. At the time I think maybe they just came out with the round port repo Ram Air exhaust manifolds I bought through Ames. I think they are made of steel and have a full 2 1/2 in opening, I purchased separately from them a mounting kit which came with cast aluminum flanges, 1-two stud and 1 three stud.I also purchased the 2 1/2in Pypes down pipes. I installed everything and it all worked out OK but I never cared for the way the down pipes sloped down hill toward the back of the car. They then swept back up into the H pipe with 45s.
I tried a couple of times since then over the years to tweak things where I loosened all the clamps and flanges and tried to muscle things up better, and never had any success. So now being winter I got the car up determined to make it nicer, and level and adjust things once and for all. I always thought that the 45s turning up into the H pipe where tightened a bit turned and holding the down pipes in the wrong position. What I have found now that I disconnected everything is that the flanges on the manifolds and the bell on the pipes along with the aluminum fastening flanges are all so tight and really dictate the angle of the pipes. There are signs that they never really sealed well even being tightened to the point where the 2 stud cast flange bent and cracked. That being said , and I hope its understandable,, My question is. Does anyone have any experience with these specific parts to the extent that they might know if there have been any fitment issues like mine that have been corrected since 2008? If I buy another set of Pypes down pipes today maybe they will fit better? The flange contact area on the exhaust manifolds is very small due to the 2 1/2in opening. If I try tweaking and just getting a new flange and bolt kit ,is there a sealer or gasket material that I could put on the flanges? Is there a better steel flange kit of some kind that would work better with pulling the flange in tighter? The aluminum also actually dictates where the angle of the pipe ends up because it is thick and the pipe hits up against it. I hope this is an understandable story : ) I was going to call Pypes and see if anything has changed since 2008 and what they think the chances are of a new pipe fitting better, but I would expect that they would likely be unable to answer not being able to know all about the manifolds that where produced elsewhere. Thanks in advance for any helpful hints. |
#2
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1st off I went through 2 sets of the alum flanges because they are so weak they break when you tighten them up. Use the newer steel ones. But I have about the same problem as you do, but I do have them sealed by using a little bit of grease on the bell end of the pipe so it will slide a little bit when you tighten them up. But what I have found is if you use a floor jack under your Y-pipe or H-pipe to push the pipes up & keep the jack there until you get the pipes tightened down. It helps but doesn't cure it completely. I have a cure for it as I use to have a shop with a pipe bender & on a few that I did for others ,,, before I used the RA IV manifolds, I'd cut the bell off the end of the pipes & reexpand the pipes so they were a bit more shallow & then cut enough off the pipe so it starts up a little higher to start. It takes time as I have to do it a few times to get it up high enough to have them fit up higher & better. I would also grind the edge of the bell on the pipe so it could swing up or down more, but you can only take off just a little before it leaks again. But then when you use the floor jack to get them up high enough it helps get them up where you can almost have them hidden like a factory system would be.
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#3
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Thanks, One thing I did notice now looking at everything is that the bell is so tight up against the studs that when I tightened it, it would have kept the bell from being able to expand at all allowing things to push up into place. I marked where the studs are on the bell and ground just a little bit off. I ordered the other steel flanges today. The pipes really are not too low in the front ,its that they need to come up in the back about an inch+ to tuck the rest of the system up better. Thanks
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#4
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You can see in this photo why the pipes bother me. Looks like Crap.
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#5
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This seems to be at least a good part of the problem, The pipe seems to dive downward with the flange level just about the same as it does on the car.
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#6
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The pipes on my 73 GTO look just about the way your do , mine may,,, may be a little higher but thats about where mine are, I use the 2 1/2 inch pipe to. I really cranked on them last year to get them up. If I would have had a torch I think maybe I could have gotton them up a little more with some heat to bend it with the floor jack under it. I'll be putting my 462 back in soon so I'll do a little more tricking on the pipes to get them up so there almost hidden when on. I even use an S-pipe to get them up higher in the back. At least my mufflers are up , but now I need to get the front pipes up to. Maybe this year.
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#7
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I have the same problem with my 72 Formula and it's worse on these cars because every speed bump or dip in the road hits the pipes. I am looking for a solution.
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#8
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Well, My conclusion after taking everything apart and reworking and studying it is 1) that the bend on the down pipe should be shorter 2) The flange bells need to be trimmed just a little near each stud to allow them to press up into place without pushing on the studs. 3) you need to use the iron flanges to be able to tighten them up enough.
I had to push up the back of the passenger side down pipe with a floor jack,after making up the flange, and heat the pipe just near the bottom of the bend on the front. on the driver side it was just a matter of trimming the flange and holding it up tight while making up the flange. Still when looking at the front the passenger pipe comes down off the motor further than the driver side. Anyway, it was not easy to get the pipe to bend with just a homeowner propane tank Was hard to get it all hot at the same time. But it is a big improvement over what I had. Still would like to know for others sake, if this is a problem everyone is having, and if maybe a new generation of these pipes might fit better. Here are some before and after, It was really bothering me for years, It may not be ready for a Barret Jackson chassis cam but glad it looks so much better. Pipes didn't just need to be put in place but needed to be cleaned up and polished too. At least the pipes are parallel with the rockers now. |
#9
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I think most of the down pipes out there hang fairly low I know the ones on my 81 do.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#10
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I got completely fed up with the Pypes system on my '70 as well. Finally took it to a very good exhaust shop here in town and paid nearly $600 in labor to get it unscrewed. the 2 1/2" head pipes each had to be cut down about 3" and reflared, the one tailpipe had to be bent, and all in all, it just embittered me towards Pypes even more. In the future if I ever do it again, I'll have a shop just build a custom system. Pypes was several hours of the car up on the lift trying to make it all fit properly when it was never going to due to the pipes themselves being made wrong.
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1970 GTO 455HO Convertible M40, Sierra Yellow, Saddle Int, Tan top. PDB, PS, PW, A/C, Rally Gauges, Hood Tach, Spoiler |
#11
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I just installed a 2.5" stainless x-pipe Pypes system over the last few weekends. I bought the stuff from Summit, so who knows how long it's been on the shelf. The down pipes are p/n DGA20S33 and the rest of the system was p/n SGA10S.
I have 2003-ish RARE manifolds. I had to trim about 1/8-3/16 off the lip of the pipe to get it to clear the studs on the manifold. Understandable since I'm sure these pipes have fit manifolds with 3" dumps too. The flanges supplied with the kit were beefier than the ones that came with my RARE manifolds, but I couldn't get them to fit my manifolds so I reused the ones that came with my manifolds. I'm at 4.5" of clearance at it lowest spot. At the x-pipe I'm a little over 5" and at the mufflers I'm at 6" of clearance. I'm not sure how I could get the system any higher - with the car in the air the x-pipe is up against the drive shaft. I've got about 1" between the down pipes and the trans crossmember. I agree that it seems like you could get them a little higher up if there was less height to the drop from the manifold. I debated taking a little more off the lip of the pipe because it looks like it's hitting the lip on the manifold, but I didn't want to risk breaking the seal on the front because the pipe was angled too far up towards the back. The clearance I have looks better than 1beautifuldaughter. I didn't measure the clearance of my old system, but I'd bet it was in the ballpark of this one.
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - 3.55 posi (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) Last edited by Verdoro 68; 01-19-2016 at 12:23 AM. |
#12
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Well it would appear with the responses on this thread that it would be really great if these pipes where adjusted some to make them higher. Is it a problem in the tooling that makes the bend longer I wonder?
Well I am somewhat satisfied with the improvements I made on mine, But it will be nice if they do something different in the future. |
#13
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Quote:
Piece of paper in with the head pipes that sort of mentions maybe having to trim it to fit but not very much detail. My first exhaust job so kinda frustrating. Surprised there isn't more posts about this. |
#14
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Does anyone know if RARE is able to supply their pipes in a timely manner?
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#15
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Got mine from Summit a couple weeks ago no problem.
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#16
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Quote:
I have their RM-2-OS 2.45" and down pipes. The down pipes sat too low so I raised them so they were slightly higher than the front cross-member. There is no exhaust leak at the manifold and I can get a 1/2 drive 9/16 socket on all 6 bolts. |
#17
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I also have the DGA20S33 downpipes with 2.25" HO manifolds. Took them to muffler shop and they said they don't fit right. You could see the lip of the bell extending into the opening for the flange bolts. I told him about trimming and he said he could not do that. He said if it is not trimmed evenly and does not seal he would not take that responsibility. Kind of sucks that these are made for "universal fit" and need modification to work. Would be nice if they made one for a 2.25" collector opening like stock HO manifolds. So now I have to find another shop that will do it or trim them myself. The rest of my x crossover system is already welded in place with mufflers and tailpipes. I do not have a lift or welder to do the install myself.
Anyone trimmed these to fit 2.25" manifolds? How much did you take off around the bell and what did you use to grind with? Thanks. Mark |
#18
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Quote:
It does say in the directions you may have to grind the bell to fit. I am faced with this too. Figured I'd grind down maybe 1/4 inch. Should leave plenty to seal to the manifold. |
#19
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I took a look when they held the downpipes up to the manifold. Not only does the lip need to be clearanced for the bolts but the bell is too large to seat on the manifold. So it needs to be ground around the entire circumference of the head pipe. I am going to take about 3/16" off around entire lip. I will see if I can unbolt the headpipe and move it enough to slip the new downpipe up on the collector for fit.
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#20
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Finally got the Pypes DGA 20S33 headpipes installed. I took about 1/4" of lip off bell on the 2.5" downpipes. I needed to take that much to clear the bolt holes on the flanges. What a PIA. These probably should only be marketed for 2.5" manifolds. Disappointed in fit and quality. Muffler shop pointed out one pipe was already starting to split on the seam. I had to use Copper RTV on manifold sealing area just to get them to seal to the manifolds. Not much lip left after grinding to clear bolt holes.
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