[paint guy]

After reading about possibly the earlist RA vert in the Judges section,I have decided to throw this out there.69 vert(std 350 hp 400 at car)build date of 10D,ship date(from PHS)of 10-28-68,but the body# is"BT00038".All codes match to the car originally(limelight,white top, parchment).My question is this:Shouldn't the body # be higher with a 10d build and a 10-28-68 ship date?VIN is 24267R111xxx if that helps.Do I have one of(or the first)69 vert made?Any info appreciated as well as guesses,conjecture,and entertaining suppositions.

[Keith Seymore]

I'm not a Judge guy (or a 68/69 guy, either, for that matter) but in general body numbers are sequenced by body type. So - a convertible body number will normally be significantly lower than a hardtop body number from that same time period.

Does that help any?

K

[north]

A VIN starting 111 at the Arlington plant is a car that was built late October so that part is right sounding.

In terms of the body number I don't think they used different sequences for different body styles but I have noticed that the earliest convertible I have from my PHS's is in December. Given I have 17 convertible VINs from Arlington it seems a little odd that I have none from the first three plus months.

Perhaps convertible production was a delayed start at that plant.

[paint guy]

Thanks for the above info,guys,it is much appreciated.Heres another few questions:If the body sequence # is "BT00038"does that mean i have the 38th vert built?Or the 38th built at Arlington?Should there be a six-digit # on the plate(maybe starting with a "1")or is a 5-digit "normal"?North,if you have a "collection" of PHS's and would like a copy of mine,I'd be happy to mail you one.

[68pongto]

You have the 38th GTO convertible built at the Arlington plant. Each plant started at #1 for body numbers. Each body style started at #1. Each plant started at 100001 for seq. production. It is possible that a VIN could be repeated except for the plant code. One plants body numbers had no effect on another plants body numbers. Scott

[paint guy]

Thanks for the info,it is much appreciated.Given a build date of Oct 28th,and 69 production stated at the end of August,that's an average of only 19 verts for the first 2months of production.Gives a little creedence to North's contention that vert production may have been delayed at Arlington for whatever reason.Thanks again.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 68pongto

It is possible that a VIN could be repeated except for the plant code.

I can confirm this: I have the PHS info for two '65 A bodies; one is 237375Z123456 and the other is 237375P123456. One Fremont car, one Pontiac car - same numeric portion of the VIN.

Originally Posted by 68pongto

You have the 38th GTO convertible built at the Arlington plant. Each plant started at #1 for body numbers. Each body style started at #1. Each plant started at 100001 for seq. production. It is possible that a VIN could be repeated except for the plant code. One plants body numbers had no effect on another plants body numbers. Scott

Very well stated and for the purposes of this discussion quite correct. I'd like to make one small modification just to be totally precise: not all sequence numbers started at 100001. In some plants (for some model years) 6 cylinder cars started with 600001. Also, when I worked at the truck plant Chevrolet trucks started at 100001 and GMC trucks started at 500001.

Not totally germaine to 68/69 GTOs but it does show that there can be different series of sequence numbers within the same plant.

K

[paint guy]

Originally Posted by 68pongto

You have the 38th GTO convertible built at the Arlington plant. Each plant started at #1 for body numbers. Each body style started at #1. Each plant started at 100001 for seq. production. It is possible that a VIN could be repeated except for the plant code. One plants body numbers had no effect on another plants body numbers. Scott

Don't mean to beat this issue to death,but is it possible that a cowl tag(data plate)could be a misprint?my plate is clearly stamped "BT00038",there is no "1"at the beginning.Does that have any significance or is it merely a mis-stamp?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by paint guy

Don't mean to beat this issue to death,but is it possible that a cowl tag(data plate)could be a misprint?my plate is clearly stamped "BT00038",there is no "1"at the beginning.Does that have any significance or is it merely a mis-stamp?

Nope, not a misprint.

Body numbers don't start with 100xxx. Don't confuse the body number on the cowl tag (which is established in the body shop, and is useful only internally) with the build sequence number/VIN sequence portion (affixed later in the process and which is used in the rest of the manufacturing process and out in the "real world").

K

[rcorrigan5]

Another question regarding the trim tag body number of BT00038:

Would that have been the 38th GTO convertible from that plant from the start of the production year, or would it have been the 38th "A" body convertible built at that plant from the start of the production year (i.e., could the body number count include LeMans and Tempest convertibles, too?)?

I'm not surprised at the low convertible body number. In those days, I recall that convertibles were becoming less popular and the car companies were making fewer and fewer of them every year. Because of that, I don't think that a low convertible body number, even a few months into the production year, is out of order.

The key thing is that it is a convertible. My dad loved convertibles. And he always used to tell me: "The money is in the canvas". I heard a newer version of that statement a few years ago on the Barrett-Jackson Auction: "If the top goes down, the price goes up"!

Randy C.

[GTO JOHN]

I agree with Randy this is the 38th A-body convertible built at Arlington that model year. With a 10D build date approx 8 weeks into the model year, that would make about 4-5 verts built each week at Arlington or about one a day.

I believe most 69 A-body verts were built in Baltimore. I bet north has confirming data in his archives.

[68pongto]

Originally Posted by rcorrigan5

Another question regarding the trim tag body number of BT00038:

Would that have been the 38th GTO convertible from that plant from the start of the production year, or would it have been the 38th "A" body convertible built at that plant from the start of the production year (i.e., could the body number count include LeMans and Tempest convertibles, too?)?

No it is NOT the 38th A body Convertible. It is the 38th GTO convertible. There would have been a 24267 BT00038 (GTO Conv), a 23567 BT00038 (Tempest Conv) and a 23767 (Lemans Conv), Also a 24237 BT0038 (GTO Hrt), a 23537 BT00038 (Tempest Hrt), 23737 BT00038 (Lemans HRT) etc, etc. All body styles produced at that plant would have had a BT00038, since I'm sure there were more than 38 of each style produced. Some styles like wagons or other low production models may only have a body number of 600 or so by the end of production!

Also I didn't bring up about the six cyl VIN's .... 600001, just figured that would confuse the situation, for now! Scott

[PaulatFast]

Originally Posted by 68pongto

No it is NOT the 38th A body Convertible. It is the 38th GTO convertible. There would have been a 24267 BT00038 (GTO Conv), a 23567 BT00038 (Tempest Conv) and a 23767 (Lemans Conv), Also a 24237 BT0038 (GTO Hrt), a 23537 BT00038 (Tempest Hrt), 23737 BT00038 (Lemans HRT) etc, etc. All body styles produced at that plant would have had a BT00038, since I'm sure there were more than 38 of each style produced. Some styles like wagons or other low production models may only have a body number of 600 or so by the end of production!

Also I didn't bring up about the six cyl VIN's .... 600001, just figured that would confuse the situation, for now! Scott

I disagree as every convert body number I have is higher than the total GTO vert production total...

[north]

I looked up my PHS's:

GTO verts were only built in three plants for the 69 run, and my breakdown is like this (based on almost 100 69 vert PHS's):

Baltimore, 70% Arlington, 20%, Fremont 10%

If you take the GTO convertible production run of about 7,500 at 20% you get 1,500 GTO convertibles built in Arlington or about 40 per week so this car would have to be in the first week or so of production.

It's only possible if indeed the production of convertibles was delayed a few months at this plant. I have a Fremont late build (july 69) convertible, I will look at the trimtag number and see how high it is. If its true that this number is for GTO convertibles only it should not be much higher than 750 or so.

On that note I always wondered why my convertible was built in California and shipped to Texas when they were building them in the Texas.

[68pongto]

Originally Posted by PaulatFast

I disagree as every convert body number I have is higher than the total GTO vert production total...

Unless Pontiac completly changed the way they numbered their bodies in 69.... I have data on over 400 68's from all the plants. These are the highest body #'s I have....Pontiac Plant.. 24267 body 3825 07B build, 24237 body 20234 05B build, 23767 body 3585 07B build, 23737 body 38317 07B build, Baltimore plant... 24237 body 5880 05B build, 23737 body 8193 05C build. All these numbers are WELL below the total production. Now Framingham in 68 used a different body numbering system in 68, but all the other plants in 68 started at body #1 for each body style at each plant. I have the data from over 400 cars to PROVE it! Scott

[north]

Scott,

very compelling numbers! they all make sense when you think of the relative production of each body-model style. I will check my 3 69 A bodies tonight. one is a dec 68 lemans vert out of Baltimore, the next is a feb 69 GTO ht out of Fremont and the last is a july 69 GTO vert out of Fremont.

Anyone else have 69 dates-plants and bodystlyes to compare?

[robz]

Here's the data plate from my 2A built GTO H/T...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 68pongto

Unless Pontiac completly changed the way they numbered their bodies in 69.... I have data on over 400 68's from all the plants. These are the highest body #'s I have....Pontiac Plant.. 24267 body 3825 07B build, 24237 body 20234 05B build, 23767 body 3585 07B build, 23737 body 38317 07B build, Baltimore plant... 24237 body 5880 05B build, 23737 body 8193 05C build. All these numbers are WELL below the total production. Now Framingham in 68 used a different body numbering system in 68, but all the other plants in 68 started at body #1 for each body style at each plant. I have the data from over 400 cars to PROVE it! Scott

That's certainly how they did it in '64/'65 (except that the GTO was an option on a Lemans rather than it's own model).

K

[PaulatFast]

I am not positive after reading the above info I will bring my phs folder home tonight and post the actual numbers.

[north]

I looked at two of my cars:

12A LeMans convertible from Baltimore: BAL 544671
Compare that to the 02A GTO HT of Robz also from Baltimore:BAL 566584

Sure sounds like Baltimore 69`s are using a different system than Scott explained. If you ignore the first "5" then the next five digits sound like an overall count of Pontiacs produced in that plant; 44,671 in early December and up to 66,584 by early February.

I also looked at my 07A Fremont GTO convertible and it is BF 00387. Obviously not the same system as the baltimore plant, perhaps this is the system Scott is talking about. It could be the 387th GTO vert built in Fremont that year, sounds a bit low for so late in the year but that plant has a low %age of my convertible PHS`s (just under 10%). Maybe if you factor in the much higher survival rate of the southwest cars built there the actual %age built in Fremont was lower (it would need to be about 6%)

Maybe that explains why there is two opposed opinions about this, I guess it varied by plant in 69.

The answer lies in more data!