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#21
01-14-2010, 10:17 PM
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I wondered why you answered like you did in post #3, especially when I knew how the Pontiac plant did it in '64/'65,  but decided to sit back and see if I could learn something. Looks like we both did!Keep goin', guys - K
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'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.56 @ 139 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
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#22
01-14-2010, 11:52 PM
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Pontiac may have changed the body numbering system at some/all the plantsin 69? I have lots of data on 68's not very much on 69's. At home here I have more data to look at, Framingham seemed to use a cumulative numbering system in 68 much like some of the 69's you all are talking about.
Framingham GTO's BUILT BODY# 12C 40516 02D 78026 07C 104787 07D 107044 = This a Chevelle, suggesting a cumulative for all makes, models? Pontiac Plant GTO HRT BUILT BODY# 08 09 23 10C 1407 11B 3058 01A 6852 02D 13040 03C 15890 04E 18763 05C 20538 06D 24503 07C 26154 = Suggesting the Pontiac plant built 26k of the 77k GTO HRT in 68 or 33% Pontiac Plant GTO CONV. BUILT BODY# 10B 121 11A 317 12C 575 01D 1371 03C 1940 04D 2447 05C 2926 06D 3639 07B 3859 = Pontiac plant built 3900 of the 9900 GTO Conv in 68 or 39% By far the Pontiac plant built most of the 68's (30-40%) of all the 68 A-bodies. The other 5 plants picking up the slack. The other plants also built other makes though. Except for Framingham, all the plants used the same body numbering system in 68. If Pontiac changed the numbering system in 69 to be more like the 68 Framingham and I led someone the wrong way, based on my 68 data, I'm sorry. Scott |
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#23
01-15-2010, 01:18 PM
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Sounds like Baltimore in 69 switched to the system like Framingham.
The big change in 69 from 68 was that no A bodies were built in the home plant until mid April. This is reflected below. Here is the breakdown on my 450 or so 69 PHS's (all GTO) by plant: Atlanta 13% Baltimore 34% Framingham 9% Pontiac 10% Arlington 20% Fremont 14% if you consider that my collection of PHS's is overweighed with Judges and other RA cars (six times the proportion compared to production) and that all these cars were not available in the first few months of production it is probable that the pontiac plant only produced about 5,000 GTO's in the 69 run. I would love to see some trim tags from Atlanta, Arlington, Framingham and Pontiac plants.
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My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (base OHC, 350, 400HO & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA ht’s) 1969 Custom S 2dr ht 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 ht & Judge ht) 1969 Cat (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr ht) 1969 Ventura wagon 2 seat 1969 Exec 4dr post 1969 2 Bonnie Cvt's & 2 wagons 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix 2 SJ’s 1969 2+2 2dr ht (Canadian) |
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#24
01-15-2010, 02:38 PM
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Here is some info I have [Build Date - Body #]
1969 HARDTOPS: ATLANTA: 09D 503920 10D 506092 10D 506342 01A 523917 01C 517202 01D 520037 02B 522595 02D 522668 04A 529887 04D 534418 07D 531558 08B 536992 BALTIMORE: 09C 503204 09C 516654 10A 521374 10D 527185 10D 529985 10E 530927 10E 533488 10E 527794 11D 539866 11D 544610 12A 545382 01B 558552 01B 548953 01B 557813 01C 536105 01D 558063 02A 566342 03A 566274 03B 573646 03C 574614 03C 574649 FRAMINGHAM: 09B 3847 09C 5838 10D 23516 11B 32604 01C 57995 01C 59444 01C 61387 02B 70389 03B 79384 03D 84560 05D 106406 07B 130046 PONTIAC: 04A 191009 04A 192092 04B 198293 04D 205759 05B 217359 05C 231113 05C 232411 06C 247785 07B 267658 ARLINGTON: 10C 1117 10C 1196 12C 2748 01D 3537 01D 3580 02A 3830 02B 4437 02C 4871 04A 7108 04B 7250 04E 8337 05A 8808 05B 8949 05B 9151 05C 9556 05D 9670 05D 9910 06D 11097 FREMONT: 10D 1858 11A 3842 01D 4165 01E 4722 03C 6168 04B 6578 04C 6669 05B 7160 06A 7825 07B 8543 07B 8641 1969 CONVERTIBLES: BALTIMORE: 02C 568071 07B 582726 |
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#25
01-15-2010, 03:05 PM
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So from the above data, can we say that Baltimore's Body Sequence numbers (ignoring the leading 5) was the total production number for all Pontiacs built at Plant, regardless of body style?
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1969 GTO 400-4speed, H/T 1969 GTO 400-RAIII-4speed, Convertible 1969 Grand Prix SJ |
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#26
01-15-2010, 05:08 PM
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#27
01-15-2010, 05:54 PM
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I think a typical GM assembly plant built about 150,000 cars a year or about 500 a day. So the Baltimore numbers sound like they are two high to be just Pontiacs and two low to be all cars built at the plant.
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My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (base OHC, 350, 400HO & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA ht’s) 1969 Custom S 2dr ht 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 ht & Judge ht) 1969 Cat (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr ht) 1969 Ventura wagon 2 seat 1969 Exec 4dr post 1969 2 Bonnie Cvt's & 2 wagons 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix 2 SJ’s 1969 2+2 2dr ht (Canadian) |
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#28
01-16-2010, 12:06 PM
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Found a 10B gto convertible it is 00036 from Fremont
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My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (base OHC, 350, 400HO & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA ht’s) 1969 Custom S 2dr ht 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 ht & Judge ht) 1969 Cat (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr ht) 1969 Ventura wagon 2 seat 1969 Exec 4dr post 1969 2 Bonnie Cvt's & 2 wagons 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix 2 SJ’s 1969 2+2 2dr ht (Canadian) |
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#29
02-19-2010, 08:41 PM
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06D 584876 but how can mine be a higher # than the 07b car built 2 weeks later? John, do you have any late June/early July Bal phs's to compare to? Last edited by 69gtocv; 02-19-2010 at 08:55 PM. |
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#30
02-23-2010, 10:55 AM
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I have studied Body Nos. for a long time. I generally agree with what Scott originally posted and that the GTO convert that started the thread indicates it was the 38th 42 Model Series (GTO) Convertible Body Style order that Fisher Body-Arlington entered for the '69 Model Year.
In '64 & '65, the GTO was just an option so when my '64 GTO convert order was entered by Fisher Body-Fremont, it was the 450th 22 Model Series (Lemans) Convertible Body Style for the '64 Model Year at that Plant since the GTO was not a separate Model Series. But the Tempest Custom Convertible was a separate Model Series and every indication I have suggests the T.C. converts were Body Numbered separately from the Lemans converts, likewise for Sports (post) coupe that was available in the 20 Series (Tempest), 21 Series (Tempest Custom, and 22 Series (Lemans), 3 separate Body No. counts kept at each Plant, not combined into one total. Perhaps one reason that the Body No. format had begun to change in '69 was because the change to how the Assembly Plants were organized. At that time, the GM Assembly Div. (GMAD) was being introduced and the separate Fisher Body Div. was being eliminated along with the Car Divisions no longer controlling the Final Assembly Plants. I suspect as this began, a new production control system was being installed and with it, a change in the Body No. format. Drawing on my study of '69 Firebird Body Nos. from the 3 Plants where they were produced, I would claim that the leading 5 may have differentiated a Pontiac and the rest of the Body No. indicated the total no. of Pontiacs of all models and body styles. For example, when Norwood began producing '69 Firebirds in April '69, the Body Nos. assigned started from 500001. Didn't matter if coupe or convertible. Lordstown and Van Nuys also both started at 500001 but began '69 Firebird production much earlier. Lordstown ran to about 542500 while Van Nuys stopped short of 523000. I won't try to explain Norwood, too complicated and not relevant to the A body. I think I can explain the variance between Body No. and Time Built. I don't know for sure, but I believe the Body No. in the "new" format corresponded to an "order" no. The no. would have been assigned to the build in the sequence that the build orders were received at that Plant. However, the build sequence was not in the same sequence. So a build order received later than another could have been sequenced for build earlier. You can also compare VINs and discover that the cars were not final assembled in the same sequence established by the Body No. or the Time Built codes. It isn't clear when the VIN was assigned since some folks think the cars didn't even travel down the final line in VIN sequence. They don't today but back then, at least at some Plants and some Model Years they did but this may have not been true at all Plants. But for sure, it is not uncommon at all to find a car with say a 05D Time Built code having a higher VIN sequence than one with a 06B Time Built code, almost certainly indicating that the 05D car was final assembled well after the 06B car. And the 06B car could have a much lower or higher Body No. In other words, the assignment of each of the 3 nos. (Body No., Time Built code, and VIN) seems to have been done independently with no need for them to follow in a common sequence. One other thing that may or may not be true but is something Kurt Sonen at the CRG has told me is true for the 1st Gen Camaros. Some Body Nos. may not have been built. If the order was canceled after the Plant assigned a Body No. to it, that car never was built. The Body No. just skipped. Don't know if this was true for Pontiac. If so, I don't think too many were canceled. For example, while I have logged a '69 Lordstown Firebird Body No. of just over 542500, the combined total of V8 & OHC6 '69 Firebird VINs that I have recorded represents a shade over 42,100 cars. The difference may indicate about 400 canceled orders or I may just have not logged the VIN endpoints yet while the highest Body No. I have recorded may represent the last order entered. Either way, the combination of VINs and Body Nos. logged gives a pretty good estimate of how many of the overall '69 'bird production came out of each Plant. North, I believe the typical GM assembly plant produced closer to 800-1000 cars per day over two shifts (at line speeds of 50-70 cars per hour). Total for a Model Year depended on total days of production for that year. The Pontiac Plant commonly churned out about 260,000 I believe. If you want to check out a lot of Data Plate examples, go here. They are Chevelle tags but you can gain some insight about a particular Plant's coding format by studying them. The Pontiac A body and the Chevelle shared some common Plants. This is the main '69 page, click on each Plant link to view many more Plates. Or select other Model Years if you are interested in them. http://www.chevellestuff.com/1969/tags.htm |
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#31
02-23-2010, 02:23 PM
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My Wife: "I thought I married a sophisticated business man, but what I actually got was a redneck fisherman with muscle cars." Some people know all of their rights, but none of their obligations. |
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#32
02-23-2010, 07:35 PM
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Assuming no misreads or typos, that would be my guess.
Could be a Special Color Paint order for example. Long lead times were "normal" for special paint, so a car ordered in November might not have gotten built until January. |
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#33
06-24-2018, 10:02 AM
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I have a 69 Baltimore built RA convertible that has a "wide" like Pontiac home plant cowl/data tag but I also have a BAL hdtp that was built LATER and it has the "thin" cowl/data tag
I have looked at some other 69 BAL convertibles and they have the "wide" tag Did BAL build 69 Pontiac A Body convertible bodies in house or did they come form another plant? |
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#34
06-24-2018, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
K
__________________
'63 LeMans Convertible '63 Grand Prix '65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer '74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.56 @ 139 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 "Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 |
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#35
06-25-2018, 09:20 PM
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Baltimore and Pontiac: both tall and long ones used, seems like the long was more popular in the early part of the year and the tall was more popular later Arlington, Framingham, Atlanta, Fremont: all the long ones I checked other plants (non Abody) and Norwood is all tall and Kansas, Southgate are all long Wonder why?
__________________
My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (base OHC, 350, 400HO & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA ht’s) 1969 Custom S 2dr ht 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 ht & Judge ht) 1969 Cat (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr ht) 1969 Ventura wagon 2 seat 1969 Exec 4dr post 1969 2 Bonnie Cvt's & 2 wagons 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix 2 SJ’s 1969 2+2 2dr ht (Canadian) |
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#36
06-26-2018, 06:04 AM
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North
Were these just convertible tags? Baltimore had some strange stuff going on for sure,the YZ for may car is 5 months before build date. |
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#37
06-26-2018, 07:42 AM
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No, it’s a mix of both Bodystyles. The info about the Pontiac plant includes GP’s as well since that plant only started A body production in March or April. The Pontiac plant didn’t produce A body ragtops during the 69 model run.
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My Break Away Squad 1969 Fbird (base OHC, 350, 400HO & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA ht’s) 1969 Custom S 2dr ht 1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 LeMans Safari wagon 1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 ht & Judge ht) 1969 Cat (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr ht) 1969 Ventura wagon 2 seat 1969 Exec 4dr post 1969 2 Bonnie Cvt's & 2 wagons 1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr ht & Cvt) 1969 Grand Prix 2 SJ’s 1969 2+2 2dr ht (Canadian) |
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