[Don 79 TA]

Ok.... maybe there is an audio engineer/installer/adio-aholic/etc.. that can help me... and i will try to brief as possible with key points... but its still gonna be long....

79 TA, use two Pioneer 5-way 6*9's in the rear deck
Amps have all been decent quality 2 channel AB amps installed in trunk with NOTHING else in there, plenty of air and no heat sources
I use high end premium quality cables throughout the system.

Issue: Amps overheating within two hours of use and seriously want to avoid this as it kills the fun driving experience for the wife and i as we cruise around

Past setup:
my old Pioneer CD player DEH-880 (i believe) which i bought in 92/93 died last summer. i used that with RCA outputs to the amp. NEVER had issues with overheating and enjoyed long play times playing CD's. amps used in the past were Sony, Pioneer, Alpine, and JVC arsenal, all up to 125w max rms and various gain levels set, typically towards the high side which gave decent sound volume

Current Setups:
After the CD unit died, i bought a Pioneer (yes i am a die hard pioneer fan) MVH-X560BT and just installed that late last year for the last few outtings with the car. That unit was a media player which i converted to using a USB flashdrive for music now. it has 2v pre amp output, which in turn i had to crank the gain all the way up on the JVC amp i was using for the last 4 years without issues. i only had about two hours of use, then the amp would overheat, and i'd get low sound, humming, etc... amp cools down... WALLAH perfect loud sound until an hour or so driving. so the amp died this spring after a drive and i had to replace speakers too (MegaDeath will kill 6*9's) lol, i know i had been pushing the 5 year old speakers REALLY hard at times.
i put in new speakers, high end 5 way 6*9 pioneers now, which are rated at 20w rms more than the old ones (YAY). i put in a pioneer amp GM-A5602 which is 150w*2, and well had to have the gain all the way up to get decent sound and it would only last an hour or so before overheat and low volume. returned it, got another one as a replacement, same issue.
So...
i bought a Rockford fosgate amp T-600 which is a BEEFIE 200w amp. I had to set the gain to 3/4 to get decent sound. this setup was crystal clear and nice, but again, after two hours use (yes slightly longer), same thing, sound goes down, amp SUPER hot..
So...
I replaced the head unit with a JVC KD-X80BT which has 4.8v pre amp outputs. i turned the gain down on the rockford amp as these peramps put out power. i was able to get about 3 to 4 hours driving time before... WALLAH over heat...

So....
WTF is going on???? is audio stuff now made like crap?
i never had these issues before, and the audio shop near me says they never heard of this, especially just driving 6*9's

one fella i sold my alpine amp to said he only buys old stuff, anything new is CRAP.

There is a high end focal amp i am looking at that has internal cooling fan, but it's a pretty expensive sucker at almost $1200, which i don't mind if i get clarity, quality, etc, along with a thermal controlled fan

Anyone with an extreme audio system?
what do you use for amps and cooling?
do i need external fans now?
and as i said why is it an issue with the various equipment i have tried compared to what i have used?
and other high end amps i should look out before i take the plunge on the focal? i was thinking orion, but it doesn't have a cooling fan.
i am HEART broken over the death of the Pioneer CD player, loved the loud button feature that for some reason most new systems don't have easily accessible anymore
i am trying to keep a simple system like i have had for 20+ years, decent head unit, nice clear amp, and decent speaks in the rear deck, thats all i've ever needed

i read on a few audio sites, they say use the amps for a short period of time and then power them off for a period time.... i just never had this type of issue before....

i NEED the sound system when it comes time to play Metallica's kill em all and Megadeath and of course Sound Garden too lol.

[george kujanski]

Is your speaker impedance correct for the amps? Using unmatched impedance may cause more power dissipation in the amp.

George

[george kujanski]

Another thing...insufficient voltage to the amp may casue overheat....they are designed with a 14 V input. Internally they use a switching power supply; at lower input voltage they will draw more current from the battery and power losses are proportional to current squared. A small increase in input current will dramatically increase power dissipation in the power supply due to the square factor.

Just an idea.

George

[george kujanski]

More thoughts...common practice seems to be adding a large capacitor across the 12VDC power input at the amp. What this does is store energy locally so when the amp drives a power peak to the speakers, the capacitor provides energy quickly to the amp power supply. The energy is then replaced from the car's system, but takes a little more time.

If the power supply gets starved temporarily it's input voltage drops, current increases, and the power supply temperature starts to go up.

If you don't have a capacitor at the amp, you can also attach a battery directly to the amp as a test. Operate it for an extended time at your normal power levels and see if it still gets hot.

George

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Is your speaker impedance correct for the amps? Using unmatched impedance may cause more power dissipation in the amp.

George

yes

they are 4 ohms and the amps are set for them or two

as far as power to the amp, using good quality 4 gauge wire with a steady electrical system, meaning i have a decent alt and no related issues like under drive pulley speed, etc..

i noticed the Focal Amp i am looking at has the internal fan and connection for their external caps, which is what i will probably do

i may try another make of speakers as i have my eye on a set of Infinity's
but they list them at 2 ohms, and some people have reported less issue with 2ohm setups, not sure what effect that has on quality as i hear it's subjective between 2ohms and 4ohms

i guess in the spring time before i change anything i'll call crtuchfield and see what they say
i love their 60 day hassle free return policy... EXCELLENT to deal with

just curious if anyone else has had issues like this
i may decide to go with a 4 way speaker setup so i dont have to crank up the rears so much, was preferring the K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) method and not having so much in the car

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Don 79 TA

yes

they are 4 ohms and the amps are set for them or two

Explain that statement? Are you saying you have the amps set for 2 ohms?

How are you wiring the speakers, + to +, - to -, and you're not grounding the speakers to the chassis are you?

You're not bridging are you? You only have a pair of 6x9s?

You have the RCAs running from the head unit to the rear input on the amp, not bypass, and only have the speakers plugged in to the rear speaker outputs? (That would be my suggestion for wiring, ignoring the other channels for the front, leaving the selector in 4 channel)

Improper bridging is the main reason for amp overheating, fyi. Since the problem is following you from amp to amp, it sounds like how you have it wired. Try to explain in detail all of the wiring & settings you have, and we can go from there.

.

[ta man]

Back in the day when I was in car audio heavily,I only had issues of overheating twice,one was caused by a weak alternator,the other improper heavy amp wiring caused by the previous owner..Double check your ground wires,supply wires and insure your alternator can handle the extra amps.Your volt gauge should sit at 14.4 if it drops to 12 or under ,when the amps are maxed out its weak.As suggested a wiring schematic would be nice to see,excessive gain required could cause problems also..

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Explain that statement? Are you saying you have the amps set for 2 ohms?

How are you wiring the speakers, + to +, - to -, and you're not grounding the speakers to the chassis are you?

You're not bridging are you? You only have a pair of 6x9s?

You have the RCAs running from the head unit to the rear input on the amp, not bypass, and only have the speakers plugged in to the rear speaker outputs? (That would be my suggestion for wiring, ignoring the other channels for the front, leaving the selector in 4 channel)

Improper bridging is the main reason for amp overheating, fyi. Since the problem is following you from amp to amp, it sounds like how you have it wired. Try to explain in detail all of the wiring & settings you have, and we can go from there.

.

mean using the correct speakers to match the amp
they handle 4ohms
not bridged
each one wired correctly into the amp, which of course are all clearly labeled
they have diagrams if you want to bridge it, but not needed

head unit has a power wire by switch source, a full time power (for memory), and a ground wire, all very basic and same lines used on the CD head that was in for 20 years

RCA patch cable (Monster high end cable) with power line hooked to proper blue wire on head unit which is for amp/aux power activation, its colored coded red/white on the patch ends
RCA patch cords into AMP (all 2 channel amps) and power lead connected
4 gauge cables from battery with fuse and proper ground cable (all came from a high end amp install kit)
speakers are hooked up with good quality wires to the amps speaker outputs
simple, quick installs, clearly marked and labeled

i've read on some audio sites/forums that amps will get hot and go into protect mode and they recommend shutting them off. just sucks that the older equipment i have used in the past i NEVER experienced these issues.
but.... none of the amps have a internal cooling fan (and as i've said before neither did the ones i've used in the past)

its possible the volume has been way to loud causing the overheat issues

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by ta man

Back in the day when I was in car audio heavily,I only had issues of overheating twice,one was caused by a weak alternator,the other improper heavy amp wiring caused by the previous owner..Double check your ground wires,supply wires and insure your alternator can handle the extra amps.Your volt gauge should sit at 14.4 if it drops to 12 or under ,when the amps are maxed out its weak.As suggested a wiring schematic would be nice to see,excessive gain required could cause problems also..

i agree on the excessive gain deal, especially noted during the first replacement head unit which only had 2v preamp output voltage
the JVC is 4.8 and had to turn the gain way down and lasts a tad bit longer

as for voltage, it's rock solid, everything else is fine, no under drive pulley, fairly new high quality alt and new cables used throughout too
i see no dip in the volt gauge, and happens even during the day, so it's not like it was a load issue with headlights on

what i will do is replace the main alt charge line with a newer lower gauge cable, just something i've been meaning to do for sometime now anyway.

[ta man]

Good solid ground off the amp?All ground straps on engine to the firewall and frame?

[HWYSTR455]

Ok, so do you have it on 2 or 4 channel mode? Because 2 channel mode requires the speaker connections bridged, 4 channel doesn't. So if you have it hooked up to one channel for the pair of speakers, and in 2 channel mode, it will overheat.

Look at the attached pics from the Rockford install manual, pic 1 is 2 channel/bridged, pic 2 is 4 channel not bridged.

Amps just don't over heat, I've pushed amps bigger than that, multiple amps, for hours, and never had them over heat.

There's a couple other options too, when it comes to amp selection, that might help, like using a class D amp for one.

.

[HWYSTR455]

It's hard to beat the kenwood excelon line for features and quality, they have 24 bit DAs, Bluetooth, front USB and AUX, crossovers built in, and are inexpensive.

The KDC-X399 is only $110 bucks.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-KDC-X399.html

Crutchfield is retail by the way, and the wholesale places are MUCh cheaper. Compare.

They do carry the amps though, which are popular and hard to find:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113XR40...-4.html?tp=115

That's a tough amp to beat for the specs and money, even at Crutchfield prices. The excelon speakers are top-notch.

.

[FrankieT/A]

I use all Kenwood Excelon in my truck including the head unit and I have to say it sounds great. The only thing I don't use Excelon is my sub woofers which are JL Audio. I'm very happy with Kenwood series.

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by ta man

Good solid ground off the amp?All ground straps on engine to the firewall and frame?

yes, everything is all good elsewhere

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Ok, so do you have it on 2 or 4 channel mode? Because 2 channel mode requires the speaker connections bridged, 4 channel doesn't. So if you have it hooked up to one channel for the pair of speakers, and in 2 channel mode, it will overheat.

Look at the attached pics from the Rockford install manual, pic 1 is 2 channel/bridged, pic 2 is 4 channel not bridged.

Amps just don't over heat, I've pushed amps bigger than that, multiple amps, for hours, and never had them over heat.

There's a couple other options too, when it comes to amp selection, that might help, like using a class D amp for one.

.

http://d2stobyut4u5rx.cloudfront.net.../575T4002P.PDF

wired the rockford (and other amps very similar) according to the directions
very simple and everything clearly marked too

what i will do is replace the main line off the alt, who knows, maybe it just isn't getting enough juice and it is a small gauge wire with age too
although according to the gauge in the dash the level is steady

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

It's hard to beat the kenwood excelon line for features and quality, they have 24 bit DAs, Bluetooth, front USB and AUX, crossovers built in, and are inexpensive.

The KDC-X399 is only $110 bucks.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-KDC-X399.html

Crutchfield is retail by the way, and the wholesale places are MUCh cheaper. Compare.

They do carry the amps though, which are popular and hard to find:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113XR40...-4.html?tp=115

That's a tough amp to beat for the specs and money, even at Crutchfield prices. The excelon speakers are top-notch.

.

I'll be honest, i have been a dedicated die hard pioneer fan all my life, but their quality has definitely gone down
they do have a nice head unit with no built in amp which is getting hard to find, but requires multiple amps and speaks (for hi/mid/low ranges)
not something i wanted to do in the car

the JVC unit is ok, big difference in RCA output power for sure

the first rockford amp i bought i sent back, it was static-y and loud buzzing humming, and turn the gain knobs and you had all sorts of weird noises, it was confirmed bad, and got another one which i did like
but even in their instructions it could be that i am driving it way to hard for so long or another bad one or again the main charge line off the alt.

this is the one i have my eye on, as other reviews i have read state the clarity out of this amp is amazing, as it should be with its price
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_091FPS2...RX.html?tp=115

there is also another line of speakers from Infinity, Polk, and Blaupunk that i have my eye, these new Pioneer 5 way 6*9's are nice, but the lower base sound isn't what i like, i think going back to a traditional 3 way will be better, seems some other people have the same opinion on them when they switched too

but.... before i do anything, i will upgrade the main charge line off the alt
something i have been meaning to do anyway


Thanks for the ideas, gives me something to work on

[HWYSTR455]

That's a nice amp, but IMO, there's no way you will get $1200 out of that thing, that's just more money than you need to spend. You will never get audiophile sound quality in a car, the environment is too difficult to tailor a system to work without spending stupid money, and it's still a compromise. In general, it's easier to just throw power at a system and overcome any environment issues with volume.

I personally don't like Rockford, I've seen too many issues with them, and QA sux IMO. Not sure about JVC, I've always steer clear of those too, but it might be ok, seems it has ok features. At least it has a 24 bit DA.

You definitely need a good alt and battery, and if you drive it hard, a cap to prevent spikes and burning up alts. (internal regulator)

My a-bodies have either 2 10" subs or 1 12" sub, my f body has 1 12". That with a pair of 6x9s is more than enough, like I said, just use volume to make it sound better. I don't use a lot of power either, 60 to 100w is enough for 6x9s, and depending on the subs, pretty much the same. All of them sound great, and have crushing, clear volume. I stick with either Alpine or Kenwood amps, and not particularly the low-end stuff, but never had a problem with them.

You will figure it out, sounds like it might be just low-end amps you're using, but I'm curious what solves it for you, so please post updates.

.

[Don 79 TA]

will do
thanks for the advice
as for battery its a high end braille, big MOFO
battery cables are 0 gague
as mentioned it very well could be the charging line
since i am using the original line off the ALT, i traced it and it went to a plug on the firewall
my thought was to remove it off the alt, protect the end, and use the 4 gauge wire from alt down to starter, i will leave the battery cable, 4 gauge alt charging wire, and other wire on the starter now
i think that should be better

i will say that rockford amp sounded way better then the others i had
and yes... perhaps the two head units really aren't that good, and i can look at another one with a higher pre-amp output
i may be out of the 60 day return window on this head unit, i'll have to check
it didn't cost much anyway

[HWYSTR455]

leave the original line on the ALT connected, it powers one of a few possible things, and just add the line to the starter. You run the risk of creating an open circuit.

I can tell you if you're running an OE output alt, it's not enough. The 63a ones were barely enough for the OE accessories, and the 83a alts were just a tad better. Step up to a 140a.

As a test, after driving it, put a charger on it, and you will see just how drained it is.

A lot of the Kenwood stuff is price-fixed now, but if you look at the KDC-X799, it has HD radio built in, and is only $180. I've used many brands in the past, and like I said, it's hard to beat their' stuff, especially for the money.

The Pandora on the new Excelon units just plain works, and not just with iPhones. I've compared it to several other units that friends have, and with an Alpine recently with the 442. Pairing is way better, and you don't get 'hangs' like many of the other units.

You really don't need 5V outputs, 3 and 4V is plenty if everything is up to snuff.

Too bad you're not closer, I would be curious to help and figure out your issues for my own personal knowledge. Would also be able to show you some of the setups I've done to give you ideas.

.

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

leave the original line on the ALT connected, it powers one of a few possible things, and just add the line to the starter. You run the risk of creating an open circuit.

I can tell you if you're running an OE output alt, it's not enough. The 63a ones were barely enough for the OE accessories, and the 83a alts were just a tad better. Step up to a 140a.

As a test, after driving it, put a charger on it, and you will see just how drained it is.

A lot of the Kenwood stuff is price-fixed now, but if you look at the KDC-X799, it has HD radio built in, and is only $180. I've used many brands in the past, and like I said, it's hard to beat their' stuff, especially for the money.

The Pandora on the new Excelon units just plain works, and not just with iPhones. I've compared it to several other units that friends have, and with an Alpine recently with the 442. Pairing is way better, and you don't get 'hangs' like many of the other units.

You really don't need 5V outputs, 3 and 4V is plenty if everything is up to snuff.

Too bad you're not closer, I would be curious to help and figure out your issues for my own personal knowledge. Would also be able to show you some of the setups I've done to give you ideas.

.

Thanks for the offer
i do have the 12si 140a Powermaster alt
pretty nice unit
my idle rpm is usually over 1050rpm and i use the march serpt. kit (no under drive pulleys)

I'll get that charge line installed and see what happens. i've just been to lazy to do that all these years

do i really leave the original charge line on as well? i need to see a wiring diagram for a 79 TA to see how the lines are run, i think i was told in the past make sure i remove the original line off the alt when i upgrade the charge line