#1381  
Old 09-16-2020, 07:34 PM
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ZeGermanHam ZeGermanHam is offline
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What I've learned here is to not install a serpentine belt drive or electric fan... All you need is a good radiator, water pump, and a properly set up clutch fan + shroud. Keep it simple.

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  #1382  
Old 09-16-2020, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman View Post
Thanks for the advice. That is one thing that I did NOT check with the dual 12 fans and shroud, mainly because of two reasons: The aluminum shroud attached to the sides of the radiator, so no gaps to check on the sides. The other reason is the temps were SO high when the car was in motion, even if there were multiple gaps on the top and bottom of the shroud to radiator, it wouldn't have made enough of a difference.
Since I plan on making this 16" electric fan and shroud permanent, I will make sure to close ANY gaps I see, and I appreciate the advice!
The gaps that are mentioned are not the gaps on the side of the shroud to radiator, it's the gaps of the radiator to the cores support.

Just in case you misunderstood.


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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
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  #1383  
Old 09-17-2020, 10:32 AM
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Yep ... what he ^^^ said. Even with the shroud tightly sealed to the radiator ... at a stand still, without the baffles, the fan will draw air through the radiator fine ... but the closest supply of air to the front of the radiator will be the gaps that lead right back to the engine compartment. Fan creates a low pressure area between the front of the radiator and the bumper/grill ... so it will suck air through any gap in the core support, around the radiator tanks, bottom of radiator, frame horn holes. We always picture air just coming in through the grill ... but it will suck the air from the closest source ... which is the core support gaps.

Picture a bathroom wall vent tightly sealed to the wall ... but with big holes drilled in the wall right next to it ... it will just recirc air through those holes rather than actually pulling the air out of the room.

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  #1384  
Old 09-17-2020, 10:42 AM
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Hot water pipe insulation 'noodles' are the hot ticket for plugging core gaps, no pun intended.

They take high heat, flame proof/resistant, don't absorb water, come in different sizes, and can be found in black color.


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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 461, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
1972 442 W-30 Tribute (495 stroker aluminum heads upgrade in progress)
442 Build Thread:
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  #1385  
Old 09-17-2020, 07:20 PM
avman avman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
What kind of fan? Most single fan installs don't move enough air. You need at least a true 3000cfm to get it under control, but really, more like 4000cfm or more.

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Well...
I'm counting on a 16" 2,500 CFM fan to do the job. I'm about to know if it will.
If it doesn't, then I'll likely just fab a shroud for the mechanical fan, and send a bunch of electronics back for a refund.
I have the 17" version of the same fan, I think it's rated at 2,600 CFM, for my 440 6bbl in my Roadrunner. That's going to be a 541 cu in, appx 675-700HP and Torque aluminum stroker motor, and the fan is going to have to work for that as well.
It's hard to believe that people make electric fans that don't work. The dual 12" setup not doing the job was very disappointing, and I can't imagine ANY engine it would keep cool, given that the aluminum radiator certainly is a better design and materials than the factory original radiator.
I'll post my results here tomorrow probably.

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  #1386  
Old 09-18-2020, 06:39 AM
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Problem is there are no standards for rating fan flow, so you can't really tell what the true cfm is. It's like back in the 70s & 80s when auto stereo amps were rated at ridiculous watts. (and were no where close to those ratings)

A better way to tell what a fan's rating is is to look at the max amps they draw, if it's over 20a, then it's probably going to flow more that 2500cfm.

Shroud designs are critical too, I see way too many that are too close to the core and do nothing to pull air across the entire core. Also, many don't have the required baffles that allow airflow at highway speeds.

If your wiring or ALT isn't up to the amp task, the fan(s) run slower than their' rated cfm.

For the above reasons, people tend to come to a false conclusion that 'electric fans don't work'. Properly selected and installed electric fans have many advantages over stock mechanical fans, and work better.

I don't think a 'generic' single fan rated at 2600cfm will cool a large displacement performance engine, but I tend to shoot for overkill x10 anyway, so not sure what the actual 'required' cfm would be for an engine.

Many of the whizz-bang fan and shroud packages I've seen are junk, and why do they sell them? Money, of course. People keep buying them too.

Give me a link to the fan that has specs, maybe I can tell if it's going to perform as the cfm rating indicates.

Tell me your core dimensions and I can also make recommendations if you'd like.


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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
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  #1387  
Old 09-18-2020, 09:42 AM
avman avman is offline
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I should know today how it performs.
56A surge <1 second on high speed start up, goes to 23A on normal run. So 23A when running normally.
I have 2x 70 amp relays, which is more than the 2x 40A they call for in 2 speed configuration.
Alternator is 140A and I use a Red Top Optima AMG battery.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Cooli...-90,42297.html

  #1388  
Old 09-18-2020, 10:07 AM
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So 26x16, yeah, you will have to see. I would have suggested something like this:

https://derale.com/product-footer/el...s/16836-detail

It's less expensive too:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/d...UaAvF2EALw_wcB

They make it with PWM controller too:

https://derale.com/product-footer/el...764-765-detail

At Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-66836

.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 461, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
1972 442 W-30 Tribute (495 stroker aluminum heads upgrade in progress)
442 Build Thread:
http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...e-project.html
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
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  #1389  
Old 09-18-2020, 11:53 AM
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Thank you very much for the research and links. PWM would be nice, but I'm running short on time.
My biggest concern about the dual fan setup is their claimed 4K CFM because it would be hard for a single 12" fan to move that much air, and if they are dual 2K CFM fans and they are just "adding" them together, that doesn't add up.
If this fan should not work, I'll check the dimensions on the one you linked and see how they are calculating CFM.


Last edited by avman; 09-18-2020 at 12:02 PM.
  #1390  
Old 09-18-2020, 12:05 PM
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Yes, they are 2000cfm each, they are added together, and yes, it adds up.

Think of the hole in the shroud, if it were one single 12" fan & hole, moving 2000cfm, and you add another hole and fan, it will move 4000cfm across the core, through the shroud & fans.

The single fan you have with the shroud is just shy of 26x16, and the one(s) I posted were based on that size.

"This fan measures 26" wide x 16" high
Constructed of high-impact ABS material
Requires the use of a 70 amp or larger relay
Can be easily reduced in size to 23-5/8" wide x 15-1/4" high
It saves horsepower by lowering the engine operating temperature"

The one you have has an initial pulse of 60a, and if you run the low and high wires separately, you only need a pair of 30a relays, not 2 70a relays. The notes are incorrectly worded: (and misspellings)

"This fan has two speeds. It has two positive wires going to the motor, one is gray and one is white. If both recieve 12 volts, the fan will be on high speed. If only one recieves 12 volts, the fan will be on low speed. The black wire is ground.
These fans draw 60+ amps on initial startup and have an operating amperage draw of 16-22 amps. Due to the high amperage these fans pull on initial startup, we highly recommend using 70 amp fan relays 910-51000 or 910-50051."



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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 461, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
1972 442 W-30 Tribute (495 stroker aluminum heads upgrade in progress)
442 Build Thread:
http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...e-project.html
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #1391  
Old 09-18-2020, 12:47 PM
avman avman is offline
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Again, I really appreciate the detailed responses. I already have 2x 70A relays in place, so I am just going to use them. No harm in having larger than needed relays. I'm mounting brackets to the shroud now, and then I'll be ready to wire it up and test it out.
I wish I was more knowledgeable in fluid dynamics, but I still dispute that 2x 2K CFM fans side by side move 4K CFM. My intuition says that doesn't add up.

  #1392  
Old 09-18-2020, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman View Post
.
I wish I was more knowledgeable in fluid dynamics, but I still dispute that 2x 2K CFM fans side by side move 4K CFM. My intuition says that doesn't add up.
It does. Think of a funnel, and at the small end of the funnel, you suck air. Now you twice the size of the small end and you suck. Air will be twice as much.

Think of the shroud as the funnel.

.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 461, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
1972 442 W-30 Tribute (495 stroker aluminum heads upgrade in progress)
442 Build Thread:
http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...e-project.html
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #1393  
Old 09-18-2020, 07:05 PM
avman avman is offline
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By the way, listening to Deep Purple "Highway Star" while driving a classic muscle car should be an automatic pass for any traffic citations, but also has to be understood as a very risky behavior. Judas Priest "Turbo Lover" and Foreigner "Rev On The Red Line" are in that same class. I know better than to listen to Meatloaf "Bat Out Of Hell" when I'm riding my Harley-Davidson V-Rod and taching 9K rpms...

  #1394  
Old 09-19-2020, 09:05 AM
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Or 'Kickstart My Heart' too!


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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 461, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
1972 442 W-30 Tribute (495 stroker aluminum heads upgrade in progress)
442 Build Thread:
http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...e-project.html
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
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  #1395  
Old 09-19-2020, 05:40 PM
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A lot posts in this thread so I could be mistaken but it appears the discussion on plate clearance centered around the 11 bolt pump which the majority of people are using.

My question—would this also be applicable to the 8 bolt pump with the two piece plate design?

Other than the obvious differences the two piece plate setup does have a divider plate which also sits up right around the impeller, so my guess would be that it too should be properly clearanced. I’m using a cast long vane impeller pump. Thoughts, recommendations, etc.??? Thanks

  #1396  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:18 PM
avman avman is offline
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Well...when I was drilling the LAST hole in the shroud to mount a bracket, I made a crushing error and barely nicked a vertical water passage with the tip of the drill bit. I was truly distraught. Hard to understand maybe, but I've been working on this for WAY longer than it should have taken, because I was trying to avoid removing the radiator because I didn't want to drain the coolant. I had to redesign the brackets for my "no removal of the radiator" plan, and that added a lot of time, mainly because the brackets were going to be hard to attach. So since it got nicked, it was leaking, and instead of finally being finished so I could test it out, all of that extra time and effort was wasted since I had to drain it and remove the radiator anyway.
I did the flux and solder repair myself. See 2 pix, first one shows the nick next to the tip of an ink pin for scale, and the second shows my solder repair.
Looking for some good to come from tragedy, I went ahead and switched to the permanent mounting brackets, and I filled ALL of the gaps between the shroud and the radiator. Wired up the low and high speed power wires and ran the ground to the battery negative cable per their explicit installation instructions. Turned the key to accessory and set up the Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan control module for a 2 speed fan, ran the high and low speed fan power test, and called it a night.
Tomorrow I'll put the coolant back in after I reconnect the radiator hoses, and then fire it up and make sure my running hot problem is resolved!!

  #1397  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:22 PM
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Here's the pictures
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