[ZeGermanHam]

To correct bump steer, shouldn't you just install a bump steer correction kit rather than using tall lower ball joints? That's what I did - bought the kit from Global West: https://www.globalwest.net/a-body-19...bumpsteer.html. That way you fix bump steer without impacting ride height.

[JC455]

TBH, for the average guy wanting some improvement from his A body, a .5" taller upper balljoint, 1-1/4" swaybar/poly mounts, new shocks, and some 1" lowering springs(assuming all the bushings are in good shape) are going to make the car feel like a million bucks! couple it with some good tires front and rear, and new rear shocks, and 80%+ of the owners out there would be super happy with how the car rode/handled... it's the other 15% that wants that super-handling car, and the 5% track junkies that really need to get into revamping every element of their car that are going to be the ones spending thousands/tens of thousands on suspension.

[Scarebird]

S,C & C's kit has taller upper and lower ball points.

[JC455]

ZeGermanHam- You can use that approach, and I'm a fan of GW products, but I've not yet actually measured the bumpsteer with these new arms, and Marcus told me how little he's measuring using the .5" taller lower balljoint, so I'm relying on his expertise on the matter.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by JC455

TBH, for the average guy wanting some improvement from his A body, a .5" taller upper balljoint, 1-1/4" swaybar/poly mounts, new shocks, and some 1" lowering springs(assuming all the bushings are in good shape) are going to make the car feel like a million bucks! couple it with some good tires front and rear, and new rear shocks, and 80%+ of the owners out there would be super happy with how the car rode/handled... it's the other 15% that wants that super-handling car, and the 5% track junkies that really need to get into revamping every element of their car that are going to be the ones spending thousands/tens of thousands on suspension.

Speaking for myself, because Ive been considering the knockoff arms. The allure is that the factory bushings are such a pain in the A to replace, you may as well buy the new control arms and just install them. Probably buy better tall ball joints as mentioned, but you would do that even with the factory arms.

When you consider all the work that goes in, to simply removing the arms, I really don't think its a big step up in price to just buy the new arms.

I will say that I spent a couple hundred bucks last year to replace my steering parts, get good Bilstein shocks, and a professional alignment. That by itself was night and day in the way the car drives.

I have a question to tack on here. I feel like I read somewhere that one (upper or lower) control arms tubular makes a reasonable difference, while the other makes very little. So if someone wanted to save a little and only buy the top or bottom, which is it.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by JC455

ZeGermanHam- You can use that approach, and I'm a fan of GW products, but I've not yet actually measured the bumpsteer with these new arms, and Marcus told me how little he's measuring using the .5" taller lower balljoint, so I'm relying on his expertise on the matter.

Yeah, the Global West kit virtually eliminates bump steer. In their video, they put a car on the alignment rack and articulated the suspension before & after installing the bump steer kit. The results are astonishing.

With something like that available, I really don't see why anyone would want to mess with tall lower ball joints and then have to compensate for ride height, etc. Seems like an over-complicated way of addressing the issue, which might have made sense before something like the GW kit existed, but not so much anymore.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Speaking for myself, because Ive been considering the knockoff arms. The allure is that the factory bushings are such a pain in the A to replace, you may as well buy the new control arms and just install them. Probably buy better tall ball joints as mentioned, but you would do that even with the factory arms.

When you consider all the work that goes in, to simply removing the arms, I really don't think its a big step up in price to just buy the new arms.

I will say that I spent a couple hundred bucks last year to replace my steering parts, get good Bilstein shocks, and a professional alignment. That by itself was night and day in the way the car drives.

I have a question to tack on here. I feel like I read somewhere that one (upper or lower) control arms tubular makes a reasonable difference, while the other makes very little. So if someone wanted to save a little and only buy the top or bottom, which is it.

If you have budget for only one set of arms, you always go uppers. They give you the ability to add additional positive caster which adds negative camber as steering angle increases. For the most part the lowers in the GM short long arm suspension are just along for the ride.

The benefits of many lower control arms is re-centering of the wheel after large amounts of positive caster are added, reduced unsprung weight and if utilizing, a more robust mount for coil-overs.

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

Yeah, the Global West kit virtually eliminates bump steer. In their video, they put a car on the alignment rack and articulated the suspension before & after installing the bump steer kit. The results are astonishing.

With something like that available, I really don't see why anyone would want to mess with tall lower ball joints and then have to compensate for ride height, etc. Seems like an over-complicated way of addressing the issue, which might have made sense before something like the GW kit existed, but not so much anymore.

You typically will do one or the other. The A body specifically needs a much taller spindle due to how the upper control arms are mounted. So when using a stock spindle, to get the negative camber gain necessary for real performance oriented driving, you end up using a full 1.4" of tall ball joint. .9" on top and .5" on bottom. You typically have to run upper and lower control arms as the factory stuff will start to bind at those ball joint angles.

If you run a tall lower, also running the many bump steer correction kits on the market doesn't do you any good. I haven't seen actual measurements performed, but I've read that it actually makes it worse.

So for the casual driver that isn't doing anything but maybe some canyon fun runs, a .5" tall ball joint on factory upper arms or a .9" tall ball joint on aftermarket arms, with the bump steer kit is going to be pretty good.

JC455 is absolutely right though. for the vast majority of people on this board, a small upgrade to the upper ball joint, coupled with a better shock, stiffer spring, larger front bar and a modern alignment is going to make such a profound difference in the way the car rides and handles that you'll never touch the suspension again.

[crustysarge]

I installed the arms without issue two weeks ago but have not finished the car yet. They look well built. I changed the zerks to 90 fittings, The only one that needed some help going in was the lower rear on driver's side. Was a tight fit but two whacks with deadblow and went right in. I greased them a little before installing as well just to see how the grease would flow over bushing and saw no problems. Also, the bushings were not as loose as I saw on the video.

Shocks should be here end of this week and then I can lower car off stands.

On another note I did notice the inner fender well was harder to get out as the arm is pretty close.

I also have the dreaded inner tie rod end rubbing on the LS2 swap oil pan, not caused by the arms, was there before. I need to get car on the ground to inspect completely. I might need to add some kind of shim to the steering stop or even drill and tap the tubular arm and install a thin headed bolt. Will see.

While I have not road tested I am happy so far.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

If you have budget for only one set of arms, you always go uppers. They give you the ability to add additional positive caster which adds negative camber as steering angle increases. For the most part the lowers in the GM short long arm suspension are just along for the ride.

The benefits of many lower control arms is re-centering of the wheel after large amounts of positive caster are added, reduced unsprung weight and if utilizing, a more robust mount for coil-overs.

So if you went with a taller upper joint to allow more caster on a standard upper, would you then need the tubular lower for re-centering?

I might pass the buck and just see what a shop would charge to replace my control arm bushings. Its just one of those jobs I hate. Then I could add a taller upper joint and get it re-aligned.

[Tim Corcoran]

I bought the Chinese Ebay front upper and lowers and the aluminum bushings are very loose just like in the video. I will epoxy in the bushings to make sure they don't rotate and to tighten things up and to make sure holes for the zerk fittings stay aligned.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

So if you went with a taller upper joint to allow more caster on a standard upper, would you then need the tubular lower for re-centering?

I might pass the buck and just see what a shop would charge to replace my control arm bushings. Its just one of those jobs I hate. Then I could add a taller upper joint and get it re-aligned.

The tall ball joint does not add caster ability. It changes the camber curve in bump and droop. a .5" tall ball joint in the upper arm not quite flattens the curve in bump so that it's not adding positive camber but remains fairly static.

The factory control arm doesn't allow for much positive caster, so there's no real need to recenter the wheel with an offset lower control arm.

When you have the car aligned with a .5" tall joint target closer to -1* of static camber. That will keep camber negative in bump, adding grip in the corner.

The alignment would look something like this.

-1* camber
As much positive caster as the arms will allow (typically only about 2* positive on the high end)
0 or 1/16th toe in

[grivera]

Originally Posted by crustysarge

I installed the arms without issue two weeks ago but have not finished the car yet. They look well built. I changed the zerks to 90 fittings, The only one that needed some help going in was the lower rear on driver's side. Was a tight fit but two whacks with deadblow and went right in. I greased them a little before installing as well just to see how the grease would flow over bushing and saw no problems. Also, the bushings were not as loose as I saw on the video.

Shocks should be here end of this week and then I can lower car off stands.

On another note I did notice the inner fender well was harder to get out as the arm is pretty close.

I also have the dreaded inner tie rod end rubbing on the LS2 swap oil pan, not caused by the arms, was there before. I need to get car on the ground to inspect completely. I might need to add some kind of shim to the steering stop or even drill and tap the tubular arm and install a thin headed bolt. Will see.

While I have not road tested I am happy so far.

Did you upgrade the ball joints?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

To correct bump steer, shouldn't you just install a bump steer correction kit rather than using tall lower ball joints? That's what I did - bought the kit from Global West: https://www.globalwest.net/a-body-19...bumpsteer.html. That way you fix bump steer without impacting ride height.

That is just what I was looking for to dial in my Global West Upper Arms, my 1LE Spindles, and my 1LE Rotors. I wish Global West offered a softer suspension travel stop vs the metal one they have build into their upper arms.

Tom V.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by crustysarge

I installed the arms without issue two weeks ago but have not finished the car yet. They look well built. I changed the zerks to 90 fittings, The only one that needed some help going in was the lower rear on driver's side. Was a tight fit but two whacks with deadblow and went right in. I greased them a little before installing as well just to see how the grease would flow over bushing and saw no problems. Also, the bushings were not as loose as I saw on the video.

Shocks should be here end of this week and then I can lower car off stands.

On another note I did notice the inner fender well was harder to get out as the arm is pretty close.

I also have the dreaded inner tie rod end rubbing on the LS2 swap oil pan, not caused by the arms, was there before. I need to get car on the ground to inspect completely. I might need to add some kind of shim to the steering stop or even drill and tap the tubular arm and install a thin headed bolt. Will see.

While I have not road tested I am happy so far.

Did you upgrade the ball joints?

[crustysarge]

Originally Posted by grivera

Did you upgrade the ball joints?

Yes, I installed Moog. No issues. I will post some pics of the differences, the Chinese joints were cheaper looking than the Moogs.

[67gtospud]

Sorry to bring up revive this thread.

I ordered a set of control arms last week and recieved them this week. Control arms look great but i want to replace the ball joints with Proforged tall joints. My upper arms have the bolt in ball joints that only have 3 bolts in a triangle pattern? Not like the stock ball joints for my 67. Has anybody else run into this and what ball joints do I need to order?

[grivera]

Thread revival alert!

Looking at these below but no spacers included. I’ve read elsewhere the tubular a-arms typically drop the ride-height 1-2” and I only need a 1” drop. Anyone with a first-gen Firebird to comment and where would one obtain the spacers?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e1105...=loc,osub=osub

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by JC455

Re: Balljoints- I agree, that's why I said you can't tell until you drive them, unless you grab hold of an uber-sloppy POS, then it's obvious right out of the package.

Re: Clearance- Neighbor's Complaint- Trust me, I am well versed in how the clearances for grease/lube, etc. work. I own REAL Global West parts- the difference is night and day between a properly clearanced, engineered piece vs. something someone ran a drill through. Total stack up, there's close to 3/32" clearance! That's a recipe for disaster for your car, and possible death for the driver or others around him.
I spoke with Global West about the bushings. They were well aware of the knockoff quality and had no interest in trying to get it properly set up- not that I'd blame them, nor would I want to fix someone else's mistake to compete with my product.

Yeah, I am scared to death. lol

[JLMounce]

I made this statement to grivera over in the 67-69 firebird section, but after having a set of these GW knock-offs in service for a bit over a year on my wife's car, I wouldn't run them again.

The bushings in them, like the ball joints are ****. They don't maintain alignment at various steering angles, nor do they keep an alignment transferring from forward to rearward movement. When the vehicle is pointed straight it seems okay, reversing, you can physically see the alignment change. The worst part is the noises they make. Because nothing has proper clearances in them, they rattle pretty badly and thud terribly when you hit a bump.

I specifically checked the bushings on ours and they didn't have excessive play manipulating them by hand. That's obviously not the case with a couple thousand pounds laden on them.

The actual arm and its construction seems fine, but you need to literally change every component in the arm. Every bushing, each ball joint. By the time you do that, you could have just purchased better quality control arms to begin with.

The Wife's car is going to be getting either some SPC or BMR goodies and be gone with those infernal knock-offs. I'm no longer recommending them period, not even with ball-joint changes.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

That is just what I was looking for to dial in my Global West Upper Arms, my 1LE Spindles, and my 1LE Rotors. I wish Global West offered a softer suspension travel stop vs the metal one they have build into their upper arms.

Tom V.

I put a short rubber disc type stop that is on a stud, on the frame side, and it works great. Think I got it from Speedway. EDIT: GW has changed the design, and now have a bump stop on the arm instead of that metal tab.

I am strong advocate of the GW arms, they have a geometry that works, and as previously stated, bump steer is gone. At one point, after asking several vendors, all agree, the geometry is diff across all of the brands.

On the 442, I bought a set of the knock-offs, changed the lower ball joint, sold the uppers, and used GW uppers, keeping the lowers. It has ATS spindles on it, and it doesn't handle as well as the LeMans/Judge, which has everything the same, except for GW lowers.

Doug at GW worked with Tyler at ATS, who developed the ATS tall spindles, and developed the control arms as a complete package. He went a step further, used the info from that project, to update all his arms. I seriously doubt any out there are the same as his. (but could be wrong)







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