[Skippy597]

Hey all,
I'm piecing together parts for my engine build and trying to decide on a camshaft or more specifically what type of camshaft to go with. I'm not on a tight budget but also building the whole car so I am trying to save money where I can or more correctly spend it wisely. Car is 66 lemans being built into a day 2 style street machine build, muncie 4 speed (will be swapped to tkx eventually), and 3.36 posi rear that I plan on a 9" swap and 3.70+ gears.

My current build plan is a 400 based stroker using a scat 4.25 crank and H beam rods, DSS 18cc dish pistons, cleaned up speedmaster 72cc heads, a solid flat tappet cam and a dual quad setup for which I currently have an offy but probably gonna pull the trigger on the new KRE intake.

The cams I am looking at are the Crower 60311, comp 51-245-4 or 51-246-4. I already have a NOS set of hylift johnson SFT lifters with the edm hole.

I decided to go this route originally after reading many roller lifter failures on this forum. Now however I am unsure and have read numerous flat tappet failures and even Butler's website recommends against them. Is it truly worth the additional $1000-1300 bucks to go roller?

[Verdoro 68]

I recently built a roller motor. I never considered going with a flat tappet because of all the horror stories around them. I never had one fail, but it felt like the odds weren't in my favor.

I actually haven't seen a roller failure in the forum in quite a while, but maybe I'm trying to ignore them. Sure, it was expensive, but I have way less concern about a failure than I would with a new flat tappet cam. Heck, the piece of mind on initial fire up was almost worth the expense. I look at it as a pay once, cry once thing where as a flat tappet can be a pay a bunch of times and cry a bunch of times.

[Mr Twister]

I recently built a solid roller engine. I chose to go with a SR over a HR is because the HR lifters were generally making noise and failing when I was gathering parts. With the current high failure rate of new hydraulic flat tappet cams I would not consider one either, unless it was 20+ year old NOS. I am concerned with the life expectancy of solid roller lifters on the street though. Comp Cams no longer offers a rebuild service for theirs. I asked a friend who has a 7 second race car about it and he said "All my buddies that run SR cams on the street take them out every 5000 miles and throw them away. These are high hp BBC and LS engines. For a street Pontiac, I'm not sure.

[Steve C.]

Should you choose to go with a solid roller set up keep this in mind....

Inadequate oiling, excessive spring pressures and the hammering effect associated with VALVE LASH play a significant part in the failure of the roller, needle bearings and axle.
BUT very important, the lack of adequate valve spring pressure to control the valves is a potential KILLER.

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[HWYSTR455]

Go back and look at my posts through the years, I've run solid rollers on the street numerous times for the life of an engine.

The one solid roller I had I rebuilt the heads at @120k miles, and that engine went over 200k street miles with the same cam.

I did a stroker 400 and changed the solid roller cam for something bigger and sold that cam with @80 miles on it. A member here ran it for considerable amount of miles on the street.

The internet and vendors kept the true reasons for HFT cam failures focused on oil changing but that's a lie. It was an issue with the cores, people in the know understand this. HFT cams lately have been highly successful, even without the 'holy grail' crutches of additives, etc.

HYD roller 'noise' is from a number of reasons, most of which are not mechanical. Low oil psi at idle is a big factor, many still want to run 650 rpm for an idle speed on performance builds and don't understand that's not what to do. Add to that many are brain-beaten into the whole 60psi pump thing, which is also a farce. Many run wider clearances on performance builds further exasperating the problem(s).

Butler and other professional builders (other makes included) know to run more oil psi on HR cams, and are very successful doing so. Ask them.

With all that said, roller cams have advantages over flat tappet cams, and there is a gain to go to a roller grind. If you can afford it, and do it properly, it will far exceed a flat tappet build, including longevity.


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[HWYSTR455]

Very good points Steve, and you posted before I was done typing!


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[steve25]

All of this talk is pointless to me since the OP has not given a clue as to how much HP he’s looking to make.

To me if the number in his head is 550 or over I would go with a roller , if it’s under 550 I would get a hydro flat tappet and a as good a set of lifters as I could and then send them both out to be Cryo tempered, then I would use the saved 600 plus dollars on some other aspect of building the motor or better setting up the car for the motor.

[Skippy597]

Well the question was more geared towards asking if it's worth it from a reliability standpoint. I know that a roller can make more power which is an additional benefit. Anyhow, I'm shooting for 500-550hp, so it sounds you think a SFT should be fine. I do like the idea of getting them treated along with the cam.

[Skippy597]

So what's better cryo or nitride?

[Steve C.]

From the internet. Take it with a gain of salt and do your homework on the subject....

"Cryogenics will increase the toughness of the steel and (if performed correctly) increase the fatigue limit. This process works at the molecular level. Nitrided will have a higher wear resistance. This process is a surface deposition and does not change the molecular alignment."


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[i82much]

if you can drive sensibly i would keep the 8.2 and put the savings toward a hyd roller.

[PAUL K]

Nowadays we try to stay away from HR set ups.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Nowadays we try to stay away from HR set ups.

what do you use for a hot street pontiac that wants to see 50k miles? solid flat?

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by i82much

what do you use for a hot street pontiac that wants to see 50k miles? solid flat?

Yes, if the customer is comfortable adjusting lash.

[Skip Fix]

I just saw a Hot Rod article on the new 632 EFI GM crate motor that uses HR and a .782 lift cam! They put one in Project X 57 Chevy.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

I just saw a Hot Rod article on the new 632 EFI GM crate motor that uses HR and a .782 lift cam! They put one in Project X 57 Chevy.

That's impressive

[grandam1979]

I never posted about it but we had a HR fail at the Pontiac race this year the lifter bar broke and the lifter turned sideways took out the lifter and cam lobe. It was in the car for 4 years before it broke. It’s back together we found it early on before it filled engine with junk. The bar broke at its thinnest spot were it goes under lifter stud.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Yes, if the customer is comfortable adjusting lash.

can something like a 290b6 make as much power as a road paver in your view?

[64speed]

After my roller failure I went backwards to the Crower 60919 with Crower Cam Saver Lifters. This cam was highly recommended by GACH. I have to say I’m pretty pleased

[64speed]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

I recently built a roller motor. I never considered going with a flat tappet because of all the horror stories around them. I never had one fail, but it felt like the odds weren't in my favor.

I actually haven't seen a roller failure in the forum in quite a while, but maybe I'm trying to ignore them. Sure, it was expensive, but I have way less concern about a failure than I would with a new flat tappet cam. Heck, the piece of mind on initial fire up was almost worth the expense. I look at it as a pay once, cry once thing where as a flat tappet can be a pay a bunch of times and cry a bunch of times.

I actually got the opposite impression from some of the stuff I read. Everyone saying lifter tick and on and on. I feel like it’s a pick your poison thing.