Bathtub Tunnel Ram intake pics
 

I just thought I'd share some pics of the Pontiac bathtub repro intake I was lucky enough to get my hands on.

I figured I'd post them here in the Pontiac - Street forum since this intake will end up on a street car.:cool2:

Needless to say I'm pretty stoked.:burnout:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake005.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake006.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake007.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake008.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake009.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake010.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake015.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake016.jpg

talk to Dave about any mods needed.Both of mine have a radius on the port intakes.Also Email me when you get time.Tom

Any chance these will be repro'd again? I'd love to put one on my '65 GTO.

sick! awesome score!

As it sits, curious, what's the over height to the carb flange?

that is really cool looking.
post pics installed, please!

That was one of the first things I checked when I removed it from the crate.

At the very front it's 6-1/8", at the back 7-1/4". I measured from the very bottom of the intake itself to the top of the carb mounting flanges.

Great score there b-man, awsome piece of history and thanks for the pics.

Now I saw one in pics, next will have to be in person.

1 more thing to check off my list of Pontiac stuff to see before I go....

Mark

oh sure...dont post any pics of the body mounts i sent you...lol

sweet intake, i can see why you couldnt wait to get your hands on it.

I've seen first hand what a clay radius does to an intake port on the flow bench.
I can't believe there's no radius at all on this manifold.

Well, consider that this intake was reproduced by a Pontiac nostalgia super-stock racer especially for racing. I'd say that this intake was definitely intended to be ported, port matched and even further worked-over in order be to run on a racing engine.

Adding a radius to the port entrances in the plenum is no big deal, and that's probably all I'll ever do to it. This is a very nice piece, rounding off a few sharp edges is about all that was left out in the casting process.:cool:

I like it
 

Very cool piece, Bart.

You are going to need a lexan hood to properly show off your engine bay :eek: .

Les

A few mockup pics. No carbs, linkage or fuel lines yet.

I'll probably end up running it on some E-heads.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup002.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup020.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup005.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup021.jpg

Checking carb pad height in relation to the valve cover rail.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup043.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup044.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup045.jpg

Comparing to my RPM intake, the two gaskets sitting on the carb pad make up for the .180" that I had millled off of it.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup048.jpg

A little bit of weld added to both front head corners will allow the '61 -'64 water crossover design to seal up. I'll have to plug and move some bolt holes slightly that seal the intake runners. Will also need to plug off and reshape the water passages at the front of the heads and drill and tap 2 new holes for the front crossover bolts.

I'll modify the E-heads heads to fit the intake, rather than the other way around. Or I may end up running on some early SD heads, still trying to decide.:noidea:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup008.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup009.jpg

You can see straight down to the intake ports in the heads from the intake plenum, some port matching will be needed of course. Ports at the manifold flange are pretty wide, averaging close to 1.200".

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup027.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup033.jpg

mucho coolo.
keep the pictures coming, especially the revamping to fit the late head design please.
very neat looking!

Moving along now, I managed to dig up a nice matching pair of 1966 389 auto-trans 4034S AFB (575 cfm) automatic carbs. I was able to find them right here on PY by posting a 'parts wanted' ad.

Now I can build up the linkage and fuel lines.:cool:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake017.jpg

Really cool!!

I hpoe you like it.I should have made more of them before I sold the patterns to Randy Williams

Dave, saying I like it would be an understatement. I knew there was a very limited number of them made, so I snapped this one up while I had the chance.

I can't wait to see how this setup runs.If it runs half as good as it looks I'll be happy.:D

benn diggin' all your pics of late b-man, you've got a great take on the pontiac hobby. please keep us posted of ANY and all progress with your projects sir..........

davey

Thanks Davey, I'm more than happy to share what's going on in my garage and driveway with the folks here on PY.

I'm pretty hard-core when it comes to cars and Pontiacs especially.

Hard-core just like you with your passion for your rides and playin' rock 'n roll. :cool2:

Myself I am in awe of musicians and singers like yourself who get up on the stage and lay it all on the line. Say hi to Storm and the Balls for me.;)

Dave,tell him about the "dead spot"these intakes sometimes show!LOL,Tom

I noticed on my race car,driving around the pits, that around 3000 rpm,especially after the engine was hot, that my engine sounded like I had a broken rod. It's fine above and below that rpm range but I have no idea how it will respond on the street.
This may be why the manifold was originally designed to use a small one barrel carb mounted between the AFB's.
If I ever get the oportunity to talk to Malcolm McKeller again,I will ask him. He designed that manifold.

I'm going to give progressive linkage a try at first, running off the primaries on the rear carb for putting around town.

I have a TH400 with a 3500 flash-stall 10" Continental converter and 3.89 gears with 28" tires, should be running right around 2500 RPMs around town doing 50 MPH.

We'll just have to wait and see.:drive:

Looks like there's room for a 2-barrel idling carb in between the two 4-barrels.;)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake018.jpg

Sure looks better than our P65! I'm jealous.

Good stuff as always b-man :cool2:

this was really designed to have a 1V carb installed tween the 2 main carbs?>??????????
wow, novel and neato.

Would be a great intake for EFI conversion too!

Very cool looking intake.Should turn some heads when your out cruising.

Dave....who has the patterns now since Randy passed on ??
Still the estate...?? Wonder who will wind wth those..........

If you check out some of the pics of factory bathtub intakes in Pete McCarthy's book you'll see 2 holes bored for a 2-barrel carb as well as 3 tapped holes to attach it. There is a small block-off plate covering the spot where the 'extra' carb should go in one pic. On later versions of this intake the provisions to mount the center idling carb were eliminated.

I have a few early Ford Holley 94 carbs with the 3-bolt flange up in my attic, guess I'll have to climb up there and get one down to see if it fits.:)

Waaay back in the day (probably high school) I can remember someone telling me about a Pontiac intake that had two 4-barrels with a 2-barrel in the middle.

I told them they were nuts.:doh:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake025.jpg

Looks like there's just enough room for a 2-barrel. :)

I couldn't fit it in there because of the size of the linkage arms on both sides of the Holley, the engineers must have had to use a very close-coupled throttle arm on one side only in order to squeeze it in.

The 2-barrel Holley 94 is a full 2 inches taller than the Carter AFB 4-barrels, 5-3/4" vs 3-3/4".

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...e/DSC01243.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...e/DSC01248.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...e/DSC01244.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...e/DSC01245.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...e/DSC01246.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...e/DSC01247.jpg

ALL factory intakes had the holes castin with a blockoff plate.The factory intake was way diff inside with a plate seperating the top and bottem.My engine lost 100 rear wheel HP between 4000-5000 with my setup with one of Daves intake.The repops are better than the factorys thanks to Daves R&D.I think the Randy intake with the V plenum is the best HP intake.You will have no problem with the idle on the intake and progressive works the best for the street and solid at the track.NEVER ran one with a auto!Tom

I'm on a roll this week, can't be stopped even after working 10-1/2 hour days all week.

I sat the intake on top of my engine today, it won't sit all the way down in front unless I replace the '69 valley pan with a '67 or earlier one. After I replace the valley pan it will sit down another 3/8" in front.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake043.jpg

So far so good.......

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake047.jpg

Now for the aluminum foil ball hood clearance test.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake053.jpg

View from inside the passenger fender, there are no inner fenders on the car.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake054.jpg

Open up the hood and lay the straightedge on top of the crushed foil, then take some measurements. I put a dial caliper on the foil after removing it, 2.450" at the rear and 1.800" up front, add .375" to the front measurement since the intake sits too high by that much giving me 2.175".

Glad it all fits under the hood. :)

I'll build an air box out of sheetmetal to enclose the tops of the carbs and hook up some fresh air ducting to it, clearance will be tight but it's going to be just enough.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake056.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake057.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake058.jpg

Stock throttle cable should work fine.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake051.jpg

Couple more shots.....:ranger:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake046.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake045.jpg

The lucky recipient, er old wreck.:o

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake059.jpg

Bathtub intake.
 

I would not bother trying to make the original water passages work with the 65 and later heads,not a good match. Just cut the original water crossover off and use one cut off a late aluminum manifold. The ones Randy did i believe may have incorperated the later crossover but those are scarcer than the ones I made.
Attached are pix of my V-plenumed manifold that made about 850 hp with2 800cfm Edelbrocks on a 446" NA engine. No other manifold or carb combo made more power and I tried many other combinations including Demons on a Wentzler Gutsram

Way too cool B Man! A buddy has an orignal 64 Tripower GTO project that same color!

My college freshman biology TA in 1972-3 was a Pontiac guy. I saw him when I had the Impala SS in the staging lanes at a Dallas race, was good for a few extra points on my next quiz:). He had 2 64 GTOs and multiple old intakes, a bathtub, a M/T crossram. He had put the bathtub once he said. Used a wagon's 2/56 or so rear end to help rpm with the comute. Phil Bauman was his name for any of you Dallas guys that may remember him. Always liked that bathtub intake.

Bet they would sell if someone had the patterns!

850hp! And we keep hearing how bad Edelbrock carbs are!

When you launch a Pontiac drag race car off the line at 6000 RPMs the weak points of the E-carbs (the secondary flaps calibrated/weighted for a 350 Chevy) won't become evident.

Most of the guys running them on modified street Pontiacs already know how bad they are at bogging in transition to the secondaries.:(

That's the main reason I sought out old Pontiac AFBs rather than use new E-carbs, so they will run well on the street.

It's too bad Edelbrock doesn't offer air valves with different weight counterweight air valves to solve that problem. The 625 cfm AFB on my 299" 63 avanti transitions just fine and the carb is bone stock.

Also if running an 8" 5,000 stall converter the E carbs are not a problem!

;)

The 800 E card was a completely new carb from the ground up. The original AFB only came as big as 750 cfm & had 1 11/16" throttle bores. The E carb has 1 3/4" throttle bores with all new venturi clusters. It also runs a much lower float level, 7/16" compared to 5/16" for the Carter Comp Series AFBs. I was never able to make my carb bog, even punishing it with WOT stomps at 15mph, in high gear with a manual valve body, & 3.08 axle.

Linkage and fuel lines completed
 

I have made some progress on the bathtub intake setup. :)

I made up some progressive carb linkage using as many parts as I could from a Pontiac Tri-Power (courtesy of Dick Boneske). I want it to look as though it came from the factory even though none if this setup is even close to being 'correct'.

I fabbed the two carb linkage arms from 1/4" thick aluminum plate and the throttle return spring bracket for the rear primary carb from 1/8" aluminum. A bracket made from 1/4" aluminum for the forward secondary carb return spring will attach to the front of the driver's side cylinder head.

I also bent up and flared some 3/8" fuel lines using inverted flare fittings, my intent is to make them look like GM issue as well.

I installed (set) the manifold on my engine in the car and checked the actuation of the carb linkage, it uses the stock '64 throttle cable. The pedal effort is about half that of my '66 Tri-Power setup. I was very happy to see that it worked smoothly and opened both carbs up all the way with ease.:cool2:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake066.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake064.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake065.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake067.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake068.jpg

That is some nice fabricating B-Man.

I would say though that unless the lower lever arm in the rear is about 1.8-2.0 times longer vs the front lower arm you will never get the front carb primaries to open fully. The 1.8-2.0 ratio multiplier gives you some primary movement (about 50%) and will still have all of the primaries to be open at full WOT. I see you do have some ratio difference but not sure from the pics if it is around 2 to 1.

Tom V.

Thanks Tom.

The rear primary carb linkage arm has 2.4" of linear travel measured at the linkage arm attachment hole, the forward secondary carb arm has 1.7" of linear travel at the same point. This way the rear carb primary throttles are opening about 1/3 of the way before the primaries on the front carb start to kick in. Hoping this makes the car easy to drive around town upon light throttle application.

I did some messing around with a few different thin cardboard patterns while I was figuring out the exact geometry I wanted. I put the pivot points in a place where they would have equal travel distance fore and aft from center, and stay on the same plane at the beginning and ending points of their travel to prevent any binding and provide smooth actuation.

Seems to have worked out so far. Both carbs open fully with no problems and pedal effort is very light, much lighter than I expected. After I got it working I was concerned that it might be too stiff, but after heading out to the garage and actuating my '66 Tri-Power a few times I knew it would take less pedal effort than I had anticipated. Kicking in the outer carbs on the Tri-Power always seemed to take quite a bit of effort when I had that setup on my Temepst, there are some fairly stiff springs keeping them shut.

Of course until I get a chance to actually drive the car with the linkage progressing as it does now I won't know if the front carb seems to be kicking in sooner or later than I'd like.

Bart :cool:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake069.jpg

I would like to dedicate this thread to the memory of Dave Johnson, he passed away this morning. :(

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=522069

A fine man and a truly dedicated Pontiac racer who clearly went to great trouble and expense to produce this intake that is my new favorite toy.

I originally thought that this rare intake (one of 22 that Dave reproduced in order to make his 'White Warrior' more competitive in his racing class) would make a cool addition to my old GTO, so I bought it even though it was pretty expensive.

Now it holds even more meaning for me, even though I've never met Dave he treated me with respect here on the board in our conversations and that means a lot. This carefully sculpted aluminum casting will always be more than just a super-neat part to me, only someone who was truly dedicated to the Pontiac hobby could have made something like this happen and I'll think of Dave every time I look at it or turn the key to fire it up.

Looking back on his racing endeavors it's clear to me that it would be hard to find a more hard-working and hard-core Pontiac racer and enthusiast than Dave Johnson.

Rest In Peace Dave, you are already missed.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...55295977-S.jpg

Dave was my inspiration for building my 63 Lemans after 25 years away from the hobby.He sold me my Bathtub,980 heads,Carillo rods and was always eager to help.The bathtub on my 63 now has a DJ ingraved on it and will never leave my collection.Im going out to my garage,put a fresh engine in my 61 Ventura and try not to think about Norwalk without him.Tom

I watched and met Dave at the old NMCA events, since NSS classes to me are what I grew up watching.The fast car was fun to watch,although watching Dave flog a clutch swap in the pits confirmed my switch to auto trannies for racing! Dave would always give good advice freely, not one that kept everything a secret. He will be missed.

hi guys,
sad news indeed; i was here to say how cool the intake setup looks and read about him passing away.
can't not fully admire the wherewithal it took to get a casting like that done so well and for such a small run.
i never met him; my loss, it seems.
our condolences to his friends and family.
have a safe holiday,
mike

Keepin' on it.....
 

Thinking about Dave yesterday inspired me to push further ahead, I'd be lucky to have 1/100th of the ambition that Dave had for this hobby.:hail:

I tried fitting up the intake using all the gaskets on the intake, heads and front cover. I wanted to see how much I'd have to move the 8 bolt holes next to the intake runners to make it line up properly.

Surprisingly enough, I was able to easily start and snug down all 8 bolts (okay 7, I didn't have a socket head cap screw long enough on hand for #8) without doing a thing to the intake. I could hardly believe my luck. Thanks Dave. :)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake070.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake075.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake074.jpg

Of course the 2 bolt holes up front at the water crossover will need some 'attention' since they are in a completely different location. This intake is made to fit '61 -'64 heads, the Edelbrock heads are '65 and later style so the '61 -'64 water crossover design doesn't mate up.

Driver's side head:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake073.jpg

Passenger side head, here you can see the front upper corner of the intake water passage that won't seal:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...bIntake072.jpg

I'm not going to modify the intake to make it work. The E-heads will need a little bit of welding to add some material in the front upper corner. I will also need to plug the front water passage holes with some 3/4" aluminum pipe plugs and weld them in place, the new hold down bolts need to go right near the bottom edge of the water passage holes that are there right now.

Driver's side head:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup058.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup060.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup062.jpg

Passenger side head:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup059.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup061.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...dmockup063.jpg

Now it's time to tear down the heads and try to find someone who can do some aluminum welding. I need somebody who knows how to deal with type of alloy used in the cast aluminum E-heads, as I've read that welding on them can be a bit tricky.:noidea:

Cool parts...........
 

You are the master fabricator :hail: .

Les

I found it much easyer (not cheaper)to replace the water X over with one from a alu tripower intake.You need to take a drive down and see it.Tom