[78w72]

Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack

The word "compatible" means one thing, the words "approved or recommended" mean another. Please remember that!! I've heard stories on both sides of this debate concerning diesel oil being used in gasoline engines. One thing that is pretty certain is using a quality oil made for gasoline engines, the "starburst symbol" you see on most oil containers, will be fine and won't hurt anything. As far as the diesel oil debate, it is personal choice and what people are comfortable with. There is one good debate though. Since diesel engines are not designed for high revs, you do wonder if diesel oil would provide adequate protection in a gasoline engine pushing 5k to 6k+ revs! I can see an argument there.

i use compatible to convey its rated & approved by the manufacturer for both diesel & gasoline engines... thats what the API rating means! remember that! & its recommended by anyone that knows about oil or engines in general... rotella-t has been recommended by engine builders for decades with zero problems. ive been using diesel oil in my classic pontiacs for 10+ years!

yes there are "stories" about diesel oil, just read this thread or many of the other threads on here & other forums... complete udder nonsense!

you must be the guy that posted the "high revs" thing earlier, where did you come up with that concept? a story you heard? there is no argument for that at all... diesel oil uses the same base stock oil as any other normal oils, therefore it can & will work exactly the same as "gasoline" oils. seriously, oils are not designed based on rpms, if it has an api rating it is "designed" for any normal rpm range. please show me where you got this "not designed for high rpm" mumbo jumbo.

edit: actually scratch that last part, if you seriously think or believe thats true, then its not worth wasting any more time on it. carry on.

[mgarblik]

Every thread on every forum involving cars or trucks and oil/additives will end up just like this. There is lots and lots of money at stake and it's in the best interest of all the manufacturers and retailers to keep it that way. Opinions are strong, anecdotal evidence rules the day. Two things to help guide you through the mess. API, American Petroleum Institute, SAE, Society of Automotive Engineers. In a very generic sense, API rates quality, SAE rates viscosity. API S ratings are for spark ignition engines, C ratings are for compression ignition engines. Some conventional oils and some synthetics carry API quality ratings for both S and C applications, some do not. Oils listed for "high mileage" are allowed slightly more ZZDP in the chemistry than the latest S rated oils with the DEXOS designation. Oils sold as synthetic blends are impossible to qualify IMO. A semi-synthetic oil blend can be 10% synthetic up to 90% synthetic, there is no standard. It would be in the best interest of profit to keep the % low. I have been in this business almost 50 years, still waiting to see my first engine failure CAUSED by the engine oil. Oil can contribute to engine failure, sure. Try and prove it!. My advice FWIW, use the correct SAE viscosity for your application. Use full synthetic oil for the best possible engine protection. Use the API S or C rated oil for the approximate age/mileage/ design of the engine. Use any major, recognized brand of oil you like. NO ADDITIVES OF ANY TYPE are needed after break-in of a new engine if the above guidelines are followed. (full disclosure) My race team is sponsored by Valvoline, I use all Valvoline lubricants.

[Fullsize455]

Originally Posted by 78w72

i use compatible to convey its rated & approved by the manufacturer for both diesel & gasoline engines... thats what the API rating means! remember that! & its recommended by anyone that knows about oil or engines in general... rotella-t has been recommended by engine builders for decades with zero problems. ive been using diesel oil in my classic pontiacs for 10+ years!

yes there are "stories" about diesel oil, just read this thread or many of the other threads on here & other forums... complete udder nonsense!

you must be the guy that posted the "high revs" thing earlier, where did you come up with that concept? a story you heard? there is no argument for that at all... diesel oil uses the same base stock oil as any other normal oils, therefore it can & will work exactly the same as "gasoline" oils. seriously, oils are not designed based on rpms, if it has an api rating it is "designed" for any normal rpm range. please show me where you got this "not designed for high rpm" mumbo jumbo.

edit: actually scratch that last part, if you seriously think or believe thats true, then its not worth wasting any more time on it. carry on.

Right, because you know you don't have an argument. You're not arguing based on facts or established science, you just came up with something that sounds right to you and think it's an argument. Trouble is, gut feelings and reality are not always one and the same.

Prolonged high RPM operation results in much higher oil temperature, and motor oil breaks down exponentially faster with heat. No, of course the oil does not know the engine RPM, it is simply affected by the conditions under which it is used. High RPM and frequent heavy throttle break down oil much faster than regular street driving at lower RPM. This is the kind of common sense that you don't have to be a scientist to understand.

Even those with even the most basic understanding of the differences between oils know that synthetic oil has far superior ability to deal with heat, thus it is almost universally better at dealing with higher performance engines than a typical conventional oil. Since we're talking about stuff like Rotella and Delo, we're talking about conventional oils here. Yes, there absolutely are differences between different oils' ability to handle higher RPM operation. If you think otherwise just because you think oil isn't a tachometer, I can't help you.

If you want facts, you do research and read information from as many sources as possible. If you want to be stubborn and never learn anything new, you come up with something that sounds good in your own head and you stick to it regardless what anyone else says and whether or not it's true. Fact is, the science involved with motor oils is widely studied, widely understood and available for anyone who desires knowledge to persue and understand, most people just don't care, because they think they already know all there is to know. That's why every thread about oil always devolves into these dumb arguments and disagreements, where endless myths are spewed, misinformation runs rampant, and in the end nobody is any better off than they were before we started. Most people are just too stubborn to bother learning anything new, especially when their daddy told them something different 40 years ago, and we all know daddy was always right!

[HWYSTR455]

I've used Valvoline, both the regular and racing, but switched from the racing due to it not having the appropriate additives for general street use. I've used rotella 10-40 almost exclusively for probably over 10 years, never had a problem there. I've used a bunch of others before that, Delo is pretty good, and a couple others.

I don't like GTX or any of the 'dark' oils, because, well, you can't tell when it gets dirty. So I go for the 'honey' gold stuff. But I did use GTX for a while.

I'm a fan of syn oils, but they are cost prohibitive. I get that they take more heat, and the additives don't break down as quick, but there are contaminants that get into the oil that requires the oil to be changed in X intervals, plain and simple. And some of those contaminants are not particular, they are solvent/chemical, so you can't filter them out regardless of what filter you're using. So I change it. At regular, REASONABLE intervals. For me, that's usually in the 3-5000 range, depending on use.

I've used additives in some situations, additional detergents in some cases can be helpful. Just use common sense in those situations. Stuck/noisy lifter? Yeah, MMO is ok, but I don't suggest running for any length of time. If it doesn't clear up within like 1000-1500 miles, you need to dump it, and fix the issue other ways. Common sense IMO.

No octane additives for me. Yeah, technically, it may raise the octane rating a point or 2, but the engine doesn't feel it, because it's cheating the rating system, that's it.

Now cleaners and water remover, that's different. You can run a fuel injector cleaner in a efi car, but I don't see a purpose running it in a carb car. Clean the filter, spray the carb down, disassemble occasionally, and done. Be careful not to fill up at questionable gas stations. Again, common sense. And sorry, if you have a 40+ year old gas tank, it's time to change it, or at least drop it and have it cleaned/checked. You're just asking for trouble if you don't. What is that called, 'play and pray'?

.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I've used Valvoline, both the regular and racing, but switched from the racing due to it not having the appropriate additives for general street use. I've used rotella 10-40 almost exclusively for probably over 10 years, never had a problem there. I've used a bunch of others before that, Delo is pretty good, and a couple others.

I don't like GTX or any of the 'dark' oils, because, well, you can't tell when it gets dirty. So I go for the 'honey' gold stuff. But I did use GTX for a while.

I'm a fan of syn oils, but they are cost prohibitive. I get that they take more heat, and the additives don't break down as quick, but there are contaminants that get into the oil that requires the oil to be changed in X intervals, plain and simple. And some of those contaminants are not particular, they are solvent/chemical, so you can't filter them out regardless of what filter you're using. So I change it. At regular, REASONABLE intervals. For me, that's usually in the 3-5000 range, depending on use.

I've used additives in some situations, additional detergents in some cases can be helpful. Just use common sense in those situations. Stuck/noisy lifter? Yeah, MMO is ok, but I don't suggest running for any length of time. If it doesn't clear up within like 1000-1500 miles, you need to dump it, and fix the issue other ways. Common sense IMO.

No octane additives for me. Yeah, technically, it may raise the octane rating a point or 2, but the engine doesn't feel it, because it's cheating the rating system, that's it.

Now cleaners and water remover, that's different. You can run a fuel injector cleaner in a efi car, but I don't see a purpose running it in a carb car. Clean the filter, spray the carb down, disassemble occasionally, and done. Be careful not to fill up at questionable gas stations. Again, common sense. And sorry, if you have a 40+ year old gas tank, it's time to change it, or at least drop it and have it cleaned/checked. You're just asking for trouble if you don't. What is that called, 'play and pray'?

.

One question about your statement that filters can't preserve oil because it gets contaminated by chemicals and solvents.

If you run the oil for 250,000 miles in an OTR truck with by pass filtration, only change the filters and add make up oil, it is sampled and sent off for analysis at regular intervals, and it comes back that the oil is still good, is it still bad by your standards that it's contaminated with chemicals and solvents? That infers that oil analysis is useless, correct?

I just ask because, that exact scenario has been done over and over. The difference between dropping the oil and conventional full flow filters at 15,000 miles, compared to using by pass filtration, and oil is still fully serviceable at 250,000 miles is the only difference. You extended the oils useful life by 16.6 plus times. Just from that example it seems that 1-2 micron filtering does make a huge difference. If the oil is analytically clean it interrupts the degradation of the oil, not forever, but it does make a huge difference in oil and engine life.

Add that to GMs own engine wear study that by pass oil filtration to 5 microns at 98% efficiency retards engine wear by 3.6 times, compared to a standard 40 micron full flow filter. Lessening wear that much shouldn't be ignored, wear cut by over 65%. There isn't any oil or additive on the market that can claim that type of wear reduction and have it documented by SAE, and GM.

Using GMs own statistics for a study that they funded, means that an engine that would normally run 200,000 miles would now be on track to run 720,000 miles with by pass filtration.

I'm well aware that most people here will ignore this fact, but if you're a car enthusiast it might save you some, money, time and work, I know it does me. The by pass filter systems on my own vehicles installed in 2011 paid for themselves about 4 years ago in oil and filter costs, I didn't factor in any savings for reduced engine wear.

My oil gets changed every 3-4 years, 30-40,000 miles, diesel and gas. Gas engine, LS2 05 GTO, currently 136,000 miles, last oil change at 106,000 miles 2015. Diesel engine, 93 K3500 dually, 6.5 turbo diesel engine current mileage 266,000 miles, oil last changed at 235,000 miles in 2015. I had the timing cover apart last year on the 6.5 to change a water pump, the timing chain has not stretched, was tight just like a new chain is, and the inside of the timing cover after wiping it with a rag is perfectly clean, right down to bare aluminum.

The technology is there for anyone that feels they'd like to cut engine wear significantly. Read up on by pass oil filtration if any of this peaks your interest.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

One question about your statement that filters can't preserve oil because it gets contaminated by chemicals and solvents.

If you run the oil for 250,000 miles in an OTR truck with by pass filtration, only change the filters and add make up oil, it is sampled and sent off for analysis at regular intervals, and it comes back that the oil is still good, is it still bad by your standards that it's contaminated with chemicals and solvents? That infers that oil analysis is useless, correct?

I just ask because, that exact scenario has been done over and over. The difference between dropping the oil and conventional full flow filters at 15,000 miles, compared to using by pass filtration, and oil is still fully serviceable at 250,000 miles is the only difference. You extended the oils useful life by 16.6 plus times. Just from that example it seems that 1-2 micron filtering does make a huge difference. If the oil is analytically clean it interrupts the degradation of the oil, not forever, but it does make a huge difference in oil and engine life.

Add that to GMs own engine wear study that by pass oil filtration to 5 microns at 98% efficiency retards engine wear by 3.6 times, compared to a standard 40 micron full flow filter. Lessening wear that much shouldn't be ignored, wear cut by over 65%. There isn't any oil or additive on the market that can claim that type of wear reduction and have it documented by SAE, and GM.

Using GMs own statistics for a study that they funded, means that an engine that would normally run 200,000 miles would now be on track to run 720,000 miles with by pass filtration.

I'm well aware that most people here will ignore this fact, but if you're a car enthusiast it might save you some, money, time and work, I know it does me. The by pass filter systems on my own vehicles installed in 2011 paid for themselves about 4 years ago in oil and filter costs, I didn't factor in any savings for reduced engine wear.

My oil gets changed every 3-4 years, 30-40,000 miles, diesel and gas. Gas engine, LS2 05 GTO, currently 136,000 miles, last oil change at 106,000 miles 2015. Diesel engine, 93 K3500 dually, 6.5 turbo diesel engine current mileage 266,000 miles, oil last changed at 235,000 miles in 2015. I had the timing cover apart last year on the 6.5 to change a water pump, the timing chain has not stretched, was tight just like a new chain is, and the inside of the timing cover after wiping it with a rag is perfectly clean, right down to bare aluminum.

The technology is there for anyone that feels they'd like to cut engine wear significantly. Read up on by pass oil filtration if any of this peaks your interest.

Ok, please don't put words in my mouth, I have a pretty good ability to make a fool out of myself without help! Heheh!

I really don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. Let's take this example. Take a quart of oil, and a quart of pump gasoline, put them in a gas can and shake for 1 min. Then pour it thru one of your magical filters, how much comes out? 2 quarts, right? Minus whatever gets trapped in the filter. That's because no WAY can filter media SEPARATE the 2 fluids. Period. It's a filter, not a separator, the media is fiber based, and depending on how close the fibers are meshed is what dictates the size of PARTICLES that get removed.

Now I won't argue that it does filter down to smaller particles than typical off the shelf consumer auto filters. But. Because of bearing clearances, etc, it's debatable how much damage that would actually cause.

Now, when it comes to service/fleet vehicles, not only do they have much better oil filtration, but air filtration as well.

Oil analysis, there are many types of oil analysis, and the basic ones measure PARTICULAR material contaminates. Yes, they look for others, but generally, only if there is more than X contamination. And they certainly don't measure oil additives.

Oil additives, they wear out. That generally is not only from X use, but also X time. No filtration system will RESTORE additives. When they are gone, they're gone. And most additives are more important in gasoline apps, because there is such a variation in quality, mainly from poor storage.

I could keep going, about carb/efi, and gas/diesel, SCRs, but I don't need to, it's obvious. I don't doubt bypass filters are better, but they generally look crappy in a musclecar engine bay. And I'm not going to carry a pack of Charmin in the garage. People would ask what the heck it was for. And then I would have to explain while trying to drown out laughter.

Someone once told me the majority of the cost of auto oil was due to the additives and the packaging. Not sure if that's true, but I think I'm ok with spending like 25 bucks to do an oil change every 3-5k miles. Then I KNOW it's fresh, contaminants are removed, and additives are replenished. It's a cost I'm willing to accept, and it works.

.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Fullsize455

Right, because you know you don't have an argument. You're not arguing based on facts or established science, you just came up with something that sounds right to you and think it's an argument. Trouble is, gut feelings and reality are not always one and the same.

Prolonged high RPM operation results in much higher oil temperature, and motor oil breaks down exponentially faster with heat. No, of course the oil does not know the engine RPM, it is simply affected by the conditions under which it is used. High RPM and frequent heavy throttle break down oil much faster than regular street driving at lower RPM. This is the kind of common sense that you don't have to be a scientist to understand.

Even those with even the most basic understanding of the differences between oils know that synthetic oil has far superior ability to deal with heat, thus it is almost universally better at dealing with higher performance engines than a typical conventional oil. Since we're talking about stuff like Rotella and Delo, we're talking about conventional oils here. Yes, there absolutely are differences between different oils' ability to handle higher RPM operation. If you think otherwise just because you think oil isn't a tachometer, I can't help you.

If you want facts, you do research and read information from as many sources as possible. If you want to be stubborn and never learn anything new, you come up with something that sounds good in your own head and you stick to it regardless what anyone else says and whether or not it's true. Fact is, the science involved with motor oils is widely studied, widely understood and available for anyone who desires knowledge to persue and understand, most people just don't care, because they think they already know all there is to know. That's why every thread about oil always devolves into these dumb arguments and disagreements, where endless myths are spewed, misinformation runs rampant, and in the end nobody is any better off than they were before we started. Most people are just too stubborn to bother learning anything new, especially when their daddy told them something different 40 years ago, and we all know daddy was always right!

not sure what youre trying to prove here... that is a LOT of words for what i think is you trying to defend diesel oil not being capable of high rpm use. also a LOT of assumptions that i dont have a basic understanding of oils or that synthetics are better than conventional"...

as for facts & doing research, please, do some research & show me anywhere that says diesel oil has a problem with "high rpms". plenty of racers & street guys that run up to 6000 rpms using diesel oils for decades! actually why dont you call shell or mobil or valvoline tech line & ask. all major oil companies offer a diesel oil.

& im fully aware oil heat is an issue from high rpms, ALL the diesel oils we are talking about will withstand the same amount of heat as standard car oils. rotella & every company have a synthetic version of their diesel oils too. again, they are all made from the same base stock as standard car oils, handles the same amount of heat or rpm. yes, some oils are better than others but in general you cant just say all diesel oils can't handle high rpms or heat. & most diesel engines are turbos, which create tons of heat!

also diesel oils are called heavy duty engine oils, they aren't just for diesels. they can be used on any heavy duty application, gas or deisel, they are just a little more robust than a standard off the shelf car oil which is why hot rodders & racers like them.

so untill you or anyone else making these claims shows me otherwise, yes i do have an argument that diesel oils can handle the same rpms or heat as a normal car oil. synthetic or conventionsal.

[Sirrotica]

Ok, please don't put words in my mouth, I have a pretty good ability to make a fool out of myself without help! Heheh!

I really don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. Let's take this example. Take a quart of oil, and a quart of pump gasoline, put them in a gas can and shake for 1 min. Then pour it thru one of your magical filters, how much comes out? 2 quarts, right? Minus whatever gets trapped in the filter. That's because no WAY can filter media SEPARATE the 2 fluids. Period. It's a filter, not a separator, the media is fiber based, and depending on how close the fibers are meshed is what dictates the size of PARTICLES that get removed.

You're correct, that fuel (light hydrocarbons) cannot be separated from oil (heavy hydrocarbons) with out heat. If you have a quart of fuel in your oil you have a mechanical problem. Normal blowby/fuel contamination will vaporize as the oil gets hot, vaporizes and is pulled out of the crankcase by the PCV system. No filter or mechanical means can separate fuel and oil. Heat will, oil under normal circumstances has plenty of heat to vaporize the small amount of fuel that bypasses the rings. It works the same way that crude oil is cracked in a tower under heat the light hydrocarbons vaporize sooner than the heavier hydrocarbons rising out of the oil and being sucked out of the crankcase by engine vacuum (PCV) to be reburned in the engine.

Now I won't argue that it does filter down to smaller particles than typical off the shelf consumer auto filters. But. Because of bearing clearances, etc, it's debatable how much damage that would actually cause.

As I already have stated very clearly, SAE has papers written on it, and GM has done 2 studies that cite that wear will be reduced 3.6 times (360% more efficient) so I think it's proven by well qualified sources, it's not up for discussion on how much damage it actually causes. The 5-15 micron particulate is the most damaging and causes the most wear. It goes unabated in a standard filter and can easily make it's way into even the tightest clearance parts in any engine. It's like fine dust after a dust storm that makes it into homes no matter how well they are sealed up. The fine stuff that is capable of going anywhere oil flows is the abrasives that wear engines, the stuff that passes right through your full flow 40 micron media filter

Now, when it comes to service/fleet vehicles, not only do they have much better oil filtration, but air filtration as well.

Silica that is ingested through the air tract is always present no matter what air filter system you're using. Silica is very damaging to any IC engine and some of it will end up in the oil, Exactly why you should have a oil filter that filters oil to 1-2 microns, not 40 microns

Oil analysis, there are many types of oil analysis, and the basic ones measure PARTICULAR material contaminates. Yes, they look for others, but generally, only if there is more than X contamination. And they certainly don't measure oil additives.

Oil additives, they wear out. That generally is not only from X use, but also X time. No filtration system will RESTORE additives. When they are gone, they're gone. And most additives are more important in gasoline apps, because there is such a variation in quality, mainly from poor storage.

Oil additives wear out when they are in dirty oil and are used up quickly (they're sacrificial). In clean oil the additive package remains much longer, plus it gets a boost from makeup oil that is added when the filter media is changed. It should never get to a point where the oil is in any danger of being additive deficient.

They actually do measure oil additives in an engine oil analysis, I'm not sure why you think the additive package isn't appraised when the oil condition is analyzed, it is very important to the overall condition of the oil. Trace metal as well as trace coolant is also analyzed. Coolant and fuel contamination is also very important, as it shows mechanical problems in the cooling system as well as the fuel system.


I could keep going, about carb/efi, and gas/diesel, SCRs, but I don't need to, it's obvious. I don't doubt bypass filters are better, but they generally look crappy in a musclecar engine bay. And I'm not going to carry a pack of Charmin in the garage. People would ask what the heck it was for. And then I would have to explain while trying to drown out laughter.

Only the Frantz filter uses TP as a media, Charmin isn't the type media that works anyway. it's the worst possible media you could choose because it has air pockets woven into the paper. The media needs rough single ply janitorial quality paper packed as densely as possible.

Amsoil, Baldwin, WIX/NAPA all make spin on by pass filters from cellulose as well as glass media, you can take your pick, and they look same as a single remote filter. My 05 GTO has a Frantz filter on it and I've never had anyone look under the hood that even noticed it was a TP oil filter. It doesn't go on the outside of the canister, it goes inside of it...…….

Someone once told me the majority of the cost of auto oil was due to the additives and the packaging. Not sure if that's true, but I think I'm ok with spending like 25 bucks to do an oil change every 3-5k miles. Then I KNOW it's fresh, contaminants are removed, and additives are replenished. It's a cost I'm willing to accept, and it works.

I use only synthetic oils so I'm not going to throw it out every 3-5,000 miles, but you feel free to keep doing what you're doing if you feel you're doing yourself a favor.

I'm really more concerned with avoiding the wear on the engine parts, 99% less wear over the last 7 years on my personal vehicles is monumental.

Read my oil change intervals compared to yours, I run the oil 10 times longer, I get at least 20 times better filtration, 1-2 micron as compared to 40 microns, over 100% of the life of the oil, it doesn't decline the longer the oil is in the crankcase because it's being continually contaminated with sub 40 micron particles. If it doesn't work as described, how can I possibly run oil that long with no adverse effect? There is no additive or oil that is capable of doing anywhere near what I have outlined. Clean oil never degrades in a bottle, if it's kept the same through filtering, it really doesn't degrade nearly as fast in an engine. It does eventually degrade, but it takes years, and many running hours to get to the point that the oil loses it's ability to safely protect the engine parts. That's the reason for oil analysis

As noted I run these on my own vehicles for 7 years, I know first hand that the claims made about by pass oil filtration will do more to eliminate engine wear, while safely extending oil change intervals. The information I post is first hand from my own vehicles, not regurgitated spin.

I'm 65 and have been around anything mechanical all my life, made my living fixing everything with an engine in it. For 40 plus years I changed oil as everyone else does because I made my living wrenching, and put the best quality filters in customer vehicles as well as my own vehicles. Took me long enough to find out how deficient the OEM filter system is.

From my signature pictures you could see I raced dirt track Pontiacs, I'm not new, or inexperienced to what works, and what doesn't work. I paid my dues in mistakes and dollars. I just want some of the people to look at alternative oil filtration that will save you oil, labor, money, and engine wear, nothing subversive, just wish there was some consideration to a better system, than the crappy system that DOESN'T keep the oil clean.

If it kept the oil clean the oil wouldn't turn black, feel gritty between your fingers, and have to be tossed out when the only thing that turns it unusable is suspended dirt which depletes the additives prematurely. Think about a filter that is selective about how much it filters out, is that efficient? Not really, because Detroit placed the filter in the wrong place because it was cheap to place it where they did, a compromise that requires a by pass valve bandaid to keep the wear parts from starving under adverse conditions. Some engineers estimate that an engine by pass valve is open 30% of the time, efficient?

Blocking the by pass in a Pontiac (or any engine) is only forcing the oil to run through an inefficient 40 micron filter. Don't think it's inefficient, it will still get dirty, even forcing all of the engine oil through it all the time, you still have to change it, correct me if I'm wrong.