Then and Now - Page 9 - PY Online Forums

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**161** 01-11-2005, 12:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i hope with 26+ years of technology it would be a better engine. go ahead and take my 428 and put all the computer bs on it and it would be faster too. a computer can tune a lot better/faster then i can. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, you almost admitted that the LS-1 is a better engine than your 428!

26+ years of technological improvements HAVE resulted in a better engine, even if it isn't painted blue.

So where's the problem? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe i should define better. better as in fuel economy. hell i cant drive aroudn the block without smelling fumes. or if my gf is following me in her car she can smell the fumes too. if she rides in my car it gives her a headache. anything that adjusts air/fuel,timing.....when needed ( computer) is better. ive been told if you can dial in a carb then theres no hesitation. there is no hesitation with fuel injection. thats what i mean by better. but i have a 428 not a 350 or 346 or whatever. and ill keep it with its lousy economy and slight hesitation over a chevy 5.7L.

Trace · #**162** 01-11-2005, 02:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Hey dragncar, I have a pontiac 400 on a stand in my garage. When I blow up this pos ls1, I'm going to shoehorn the 400 into the 04. Could it get some respect then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that would put you in the top category, you know, the "People who get it".

I guess, since I don't fit in in any of Dragoncars "categories" of Pontiac guys, that I am not a Pontiac guy, even though I own a '66 GTO tripower convertible _and_ a 2004...... not to mention previously owning a '77 GP. a '69 428 GP, a '66 GTO hardtop and a 2001 Formula (which wasn't a real Pontiac either, since it had that inferior LS-1 in it).

You know, I really want to be a Pontiac guy..... I think I'll just sell the '04 and use my '66 for my daily driver, like a real Pontiac guy would. It'll LOVE that 370 mile roundtrip to work each week, and sitting in the airport parking lot for 3-4 days every week. I'll just get a second mortgage to pay for the gas and parts and hope it makes it............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, tripower, YOU ARE a Pontiac guy... with a brain!

No offense, please, to some of the other posters here (you know who you are), but perhaps the lack of, uh, competence in expressing yourselves might also be revealing of certain other, uh...shortcomings? Cognition is, alas, both a product of learning & heredity. Deficiencies in either of these &, well, the cake just doesn't rise.

Mr_GTO · #**163** 01-11-2005, 03:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Time to stir it up,so get your keyboards ready.Remember now boys and girls this is just my opinion but............All Pontiac enthusiast are not equal.At the top are names like Delorean,Mackeller,Nell and all of the great people trying to keep the Pontiac V8 alive and more powerful than it ever was.Guys risking their reputations and fortunes.The Butlers,Kaufmans,the guys at all Pontiac,DCI(I wonder how the majority of them feel about the new GTO,more than one has told me it was a mistake)These people are taking off where Pontiac was forced to stop developing their V8.Just think of where the motor would be if the hard work of Mackellar and Nell was alowed to pay off.And at the bottom of the barrel are the guys who put a BBC in a old GTO or Bird beacause they want to go fast.You know the type,guy puts in a BBC to run 11s or 10s,we have all seen themAnd I am not talking about someone who wants to run 7s.Next from the bottom are the people who install a late model engine(chevy) in a 69 Firebird beacause they want a modern FI motor.They think they are doing something cool when it ruins the car.I have seen some nice cars like this and they realy $uck.The are not smart enough to figure out how to do it with a real Pontiac V8.It is not hard to install electronic fuel injection,hyd roller cam ect in a Pontiac.Just takes effort.Next are the people who were rubbing their hands together waiting for the 04 GTO.The nerds of the Pontiac world.They just do not get it.Keep going up and you will find all of the loyal Pontiac fans,the ones who get it.And then you have all of the people who helped keep the Pontiac motor going when there were no aftermarker heads and blocks,Nunzi,Taylor,Spotts, Hand ect.All great men as far as I am concerned.So go on bring your 04 out to the track,some people will not mind but your car will get the cold shoulder from more than just a few.That is just the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it.That sentiment is just the reason the new gto will never be a big winner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no problem with this other than saying that people who put LT1's or LS1's in older cars because they don't know how to make a Pontiac go. That just ain't so.

Ever read these forums where people have issues EACH AND EVERY DAY with rear main seals, which heads to use, intakes leaking, water pumps not getting the job done, etc et al. Why put up with that BS if you are going to drive a car every day and you can go just turn the key and it starts up? And is dead nuts reliable? And can be serviced at ANY GM dealer if need be?

And FYI, I am planning on a EFI, Aluminum head, 5spd roller camed 455 for my GTO and possibly another Pontiac A-body with a LS1 based motor.

Don't worry, there is enough track space for new GTO's to compete. Tell you what, bring your car to Houston or Bowling Green in the summer and race MTI's or BMR's GTO and see what happens. I hope you're already in the 10's...

Tripower455 · #**164** 01-11-2005, 08:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>maybe i should define better. better as in fuel economy. hell i cant drive aroudn the block without smelling fumes. or if my gf is following me in her car she can smell the fumes too. if she rides in my car it gives her a headache. anything that adjusts air/fuel,timing.....when needed ( computer) is better. ive been told if you can dial in a carb then theres no hesitation. there is no hesitation with fuel injection. thats what i mean by better. but i have a 428 not a 350 or 346 or whatever. and ill keep it with its lousy economy and slight hesitation over a chevy 5.7L.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, let me get this straight....... the "fact" that it is a "Chevy" is the problem?

I've owned a bunch of true Pontiac engines, and 2 LS-1s.

The LS-1 does everything the old engines do, but with much better mileage, much more civilized manners. Oh, and they also pass current emission requirements.

There is NO downside to the engine, and it is a GREAT choice for the new GTO........

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**165** 01-12-2005, 02:01 AM

i have nothign against the LS1. i perfer the LT1 over it because my roomie blew the he** out of a 98 SS and he got a 97 T/A and we tried to blow the LT1 and we couldnt blow it up. but with all the hype about it and it only does 13.3-6 (mag articles i havent seen one run in person) for the 04. 05 gets 50 hp boost to 400 and its supposed to do 13.1. yeah lets slap a pontiac badge on that and call it a GTO. hell i bet if you took a stock T/A or SS and put a power programer on it and get some better tires you coudl do that if not more.

Tripower455 · #**166** 01-12-2005, 09:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i have nothign against the LS1. i perfer the LT1 over it because my roomie blew the he** out of a 98 SS and he got a 97 T/A and we tried to blow the LT1 and we couldnt blow it up. but with all the hype about it and it only does 13.3-6 (mag articles i havent seen one run in person) for the 04. 05 gets 50 hp boost to 400 and its supposed to do 13.1. yeah lets slap a pontiac badge on that and call it a GTO. hell i bet if you took a stock T/A or SS and put a power programer on it and get some better tires you coudl do that if not more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are saying that a comfortable mid/low 13 second car, with AC, power everything, a great sound system, seating for 4 adults that handles great and gets 27 mpg is a bad thing?

My stock Formula was faster than my stock '04 GTO. Both of them are faster than a stock '66 GTO, by over a second.

My '66 convertible will easily be in the mid/low 12's when it is done. For what I have in that car to make it like new, I could almost buy 2 new GTOs.

JoeyD · #**167** 01-12-2005, 06:44 PM

Here Here - I applaude your attitude and comments. Oh, by the way - This is the "2004 GO Tech & Chat", is it not?? Then why the attitudes displayed by some of the '64 to '74 owners? You may want to read my posting in the Autoweek Mustang vs GTO Topic section. I believe you'll see we share similar viewpoints on many of the topics. Looking forward to perhaps chatting with you again - maybe in the 2004/2005 Discussion area.

JoeyD

PunchT37 · #**168** 01-12-2005, 07:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:

LS1 a "Chevy motor"? I think GM Powertrain might disagree with you on that one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto. The "Chevy" engine of 1955 is over.
The mothership builds the engs. now. Remember when the GM divisons had their own transmissions? No one cared when Hydramatic started building for all divisions. How bout Muncie,Borg Warner,Saganaw etc. not being "Chevy" transmissions?

rabon008 · #**169** 01-12-2005, 09:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Rabon(Mr-GTO I will get back to you later)I said awile ago that some peoplt just do not get it.You are one of them.You like to throw around the words "educated" and "engineer" a lot,well nice try it is not going to work.Try that stuff on somebody else."Better in every way" OK Mr.Engineer tell me what is better about a pushrod basic(LS1)engine when compaired to a SOHC hemi.NOTHING.Pontiac was not alowed to put such motors in thier cars.Chevy was scarred.Pontiac could not even put a plain 390 HP D port in a GTO or Bird beacause Chevy was so afraid.They put them in B bodies.Yes I am not happy that Pontiacs V8 is no longer around,but it is easy to tell me to get over it but tell that to the big dogs in the Pontiac high HP world and se how that goes for you.You seem to be glad the Pontiac V8 is no longer in production what does that make you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I believe I was writing of what Pontiac actually did put in their cars, not what they wanted to put in their cars. The LS1 is better than the old "true" Pontiac engines. That is what you need to "get over".

Second, in another of your posts you state that the '04 is "A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there". This statement alone makes you the bigger fraud and fake. Saying that it is a "fine car" and then being ticked that Pontiac chose such a "fine car" to put the GTO badge on is quite hypocritical.

Finally, I am not "glad" that Pontiac no longer makes engines. However, if they did, they would be pushed toward the same (or similar to) design as the LS1 simply because of the design criteria that modern engines have to meet. Even the new "Hemis" are deep skirt blocks. Get with the program and into the 21st century.

So, "what does that make" me? Someone who evidently has a lot fewer prejudices and demons than you. I have moved on from the seventies and I am moving on in a fine automobile. Even you have said so.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**170** 01-14-2005, 12:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i have nothign against the LS1. i perfer the LT1 over it because my roomie blew the he** out of a 98 SS and he got a 97 T/A and we tried to blow the LT1 and we couldnt blow it up. but with all the hype about it and it only does 13.3-6 (mag articles i havent seen one run in person) for the 04. 05 gets 50 hp boost to 400 and its supposed to do 13.1. yeah lets slap a pontiac badge on that and call it a GTO. hell i bet if you took a stock T/A or SS and put a power programer on it and get some better tires you coudl do that if not more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are saying that a comfortable mid/low 13 second car, with AC, power everything, a great sound system, seating for 4 adults that handles great and gets 27 mpg is a bad thing?

My stock Formula was faster than my stock '04 GTO. Both of them are faster than a stock '66 GTO, by over a second.

My '66 convertible will easily be in the mid/low 12's when it is done. For what I have in that car to make it like new, I could almost buy 2 new GTOs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats the point im trying to make about your formula and the new GTO. so why brag about it being fast? i wouldnt call the sound system great. decent at best. i dont need to have power everything i have hands/arms i can roll up windows and push a button down to lock my doors just fine. my 69 can seat 4. might be a full second faster stock but you gotta compare today and then. no way in hell you could compare any tire then to a nitto drag radial or the like. that alone is worth quite a bit. for one reason i like my 69 better is because nothign else on the road looks like it. yeah i get attetion from the mustangs,camaros,imports but the car was made to go fast. if i wanted something to ride aorund in id get a 1930-50 model not a ford (everyone and their brother has one) it woul be somethign diffrent as well. what can you say about a 04 or 05 GTO that makes it diffrent then any other car (besides the name)?

projectfolly · #**171** 01-14-2005, 06:00 AM

thats the point im trying to make about your formula and the new GTO. so why brag about it being fast? i wouldnt call the sound system great. decent at best. i dont need to have power everything i have hands/arms i can roll up windows and push a button down to lock my doors just fine. my 69 can seat 4. might be a full second faster stock but you gotta compare today and then. no way in hell you could compare any tire then to a nitto drag radial or the like. that alone is worth quite a bit. for one reason i like my 69 better is because nothign else on the road looks like it. yeah i get attetion from the mustangs,camaros,imports but the car was made to go fast. if i wanted something to ride aorund in id get a 1930-50 model not a ford (everyone and their brother has one) it woul be somethign diffrent as well. what can you say about a 04 or 05 GTO that makes it diffrent then any other car (besides the name)?[/QUOTE]

If you are trying to argue specifically about what makes the '04 and '05 GTO stand out from the other '04 and '05 cars,I can say a lot about a 04 or 05 GTO that makes it different from other cars. Its V8, rear wheel drive two door coupe,pretty damn quick,and its a GTO. There are not that many V8 rear wheel drive 2 door cars to choose from on the new car market. There are a hell of a lot more 4cyl, V6 front wheel drive cars on the market than rear wheel drive.
If you want to continue the comparison between driving/using the old and new GTOs, this is my take on the matter.
The new GTO comes with a warranty, and I can drive it every day to work, take it on long trips, drive it in bad weather, salt, snow, whatever. My wife drives our new GTO to the store, to work or whatever but she sure as hell is not willing to drive my Judge to the grocery store, and I wouldnt let her.
I cannot and will not drive my '69 Judge under most of the conditions that I drive my new GTO. For example,I would not consider driving my Judge to PA from Michigan to visit the in-laws, but there is no hesitation to hop in the new GTO for the trip.
If I pick up a door ding on my new GTO from some wanker, its not the end of the world. If I get a door ding on my Judge, it would bring me violent behavior. So, I cant drive my Judge to places where door dings are likely, and that alone cuts back on the usage, big time.
Since Pontiac is no longer making '69 GTO Judges, there is a diminishing supply, and therfore they are not that easy to replace. GM is cranking out new GTOs every day so I have no problem driving it on the crappy sloppy Michigan winter days. If something breaks or I wreck it, I can buy new parts from GM all day long to fix it. If I damage something on my Judge, I have to pay outrageous money for NOS replacement parts and spend weeks looking for them. The way I look at it,the new GTO is a real car which is readily replaceable and therefore usable for everyday transportation. My Judge is a hobby car.
So, the point I'm trying to make is that some people need to separate the real usage of the old and new cars. I need reliable everyday transpotaion, so rather buy a Honda Accord, Buick LeSabre or fill in the blank uninspired late model why not a new GTO ?

3 Deuce 64 · #**172** 01-14-2005, 06:31 AM

"I can drive it every day to work, take it on long trips, drive it in bad weather, salt, snow, whatever. My wife drives our new GTO to the store, to work or whatever but she sure as hell is not willing to drive my Judge to the grocery store, and I wouldnt let her.
I cannot and will not drive my '69 Judge under most of the conditions that I drive my new GTO. For example,I would not consider driving my Judge to PA from Michigan to visit the in-laws, but there is no hesitation to hop in the new GTO for the trip.
If I pick up a door ding on my new GTO from some wanker, its not the end of the world. If I get a door ding on my Judge, it would bring me violent behavior. So, I cant drive my Judge to places where door dings are likely, and that alone cuts back on the usage, big time.
Since Pontiac is no longer making '69 GTO Judges, there is a diminishing supply, and therfore they are not that easy to replace. GM is cranking out new GTOs every day so I have no problem driving it on the crappy sloppy Michigan winter days.""

If you can do all that to an 04 sounds to me like an everyday car and nothing special just goes to prove the point many of us have been saying you cherish the 69 the real GTO and the half breed is just a driver so much for that argument

Mr_GTO · #**173** 01-14-2005, 06:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:

If you can do all that to an 04 sounds to me like an everyday car and nothing special just goes to prove the point many of us have been saying you cherish the 69 the real GTO and the half breed is just a driver so much for that argument

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you think the older cars did back in the day? Remember, history repeats itself.

salokin · #**174** 01-14-2005, 06:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If you can do all that to an 04 sounds to me like an everyday car and nothing special just goes to prove the point many of us have been saying you cherish the 69 the real GTO and the half breed is just a driver so much for that argument <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is such a lame statement, as if the 69 GTO's when new they were bought as weekend and Summer only drivers. They were driven everyday as daily drivers also.

3 Deuce 64 · #**175** 01-14-2005, 07:44 AM

not really when I was in high school I had 2 cars a 57 ford 2 dr hdt with 25 k on it when I purchased it and a 56 Thunderbird with 32k on it the 57 was my driver built it wrecked it fixed it put well over 100miles on it . Poor old car sits up on the hill still . On the other hand the 56 Bird sits out in the garage with 50 k on it .it only went with the hard top off and not very often in rain unless we were cought out . where I'm from we drive what are called winter beaters we drive them in the slop salt and so on all the Good cars ols and new are put up and if I owned a 04 otg it would be too If it is so special treat it that way

Tripower455 · #**176** 01-14-2005, 08:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> thats the point im trying to make about your formula and the new GTO. so why brag about it being fast? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference between my Formula and GTO can't be more than a few tenths. The difference in comfort is staggering. I traded the Formula for the GTO, and don't regret it one bit. It is still faster than a majority of the cars available today.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> i wouldnt call the sound system great. decent at best. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can guarantee it's a darn sight better than the one in your '69, and about as good as the one in my Formula.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> i dont need to have power everything i have hands/arms i can roll up windows and push a button down to lock my doors just fine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> my 69 can seat 4. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So can my '66, and my '04.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>might be a full second faster stock but you gotta compare today and then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> no way in hell you could compare any tire then to a nitto drag radial or the like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> that alone is worth quite a bit. for one reason i like my 69 better is because nothign else on the road looks like it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It did in '69.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> yeah i get attetion from the mustangs,camaros,imports but the car was made to go fast. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same with my '04........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> if i wanted something to ride aorund in id get a 1930-50 model not a ford (everyone and their brother has one) it woul be somethign diffrent as well. what can you say about a 04 or 05 GTO that makes it diffrent then any other car (besides the name)?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RWD, V-8, manual transmission with seats for 4 adults for less than $30K. Find one other car that meets that description. I'll save you the time. There aren't any. That makes it "different".

projectfolly · #**177** 01-14-2005, 09:27 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
"If you can do all that to an 04 sounds to me like an everyday car and nothing special"

"Do all that" ? Do all what ? Drive the '04 like a real car ? Are you sugesting that I dont take care of my car? Just because I drive it, that does not mean I dont take care of it.
Yes I do cherish my Judge, guilty as charged (pardon that pun!)But as I mentioned before, its not easily replaced so I cant drive it as a real car.

"Nothing special" ?
Sure its special. It gives me joy everytime I turn the key. After a long tedious day at work, the day gets little better on the drive home in my GTO.
Why should I drive something that I dont like or isnt special ?

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**178** 01-17-2005, 02:40 AM

ill ask this again what makes the 04 "look" (this means things you can see) diffrent from other new cars on the road today? like i said my 69 might look simmilar to A-bodies but the 04 looks like EVERY other car on the road both import and domestic. im glad you know what my system sounds like in my 69. but the 04's system isnt great. not even close. how can you accuratley compare times from a old GTO and a new one? put a "new" set of tires on a old GTO or a "old" set on the new GTO and then compare. youre right i cant name a V8 RWD under $35,000 +/- that will beat a 04 GTO in the 1/4. but i can name some 4/6 bangers that can.

RandyW · #**179** 01-17-2005, 06:10 AM

I guess that means those 4 bangers will outrun the old GTO's, too!!!

Tripower455 · #**180** 01-17-2005, 10:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
ill ask this again what makes the 04 "look" (this means things you can see) diffrent from other new cars on the road today? like i said my 69 might look simmilar to A-bodies but the 04 looks like EVERY other car on the road both import and domestic. im glad you know what my system sounds like in my 69. but the 04's system isnt great. not even close. how can you accuratley compare times from a old GTO and a new one? put a "new" set of tires on a old GTO or a "old" set on the new GTO and then compare. youre right i cant name a V8 RWD under $35,000 +/- that will beat a 04 GTO in the 1/4. but i can name some 4/6 bangers that can. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The '04 looks like a lot of other cars on the road. So what? So did the '64.

The sound system on the '04 is decent enough for me to not change it (other than the HU). How many '69's have their original, front and rear speaker AM/FM sound system in them?

Tire technology improved with the rest of the car.

Name a new RWD 4 or 6 banger in the same price range, that can beat the GTO in the 1/4, that has as nice an interior, handles as well and isn't a s**t box..... I'll answer for you again..... There aren't any....

What was it you asked again?