Then and Now

[RandyW]

According to Chevrolet advertising, the sbc is the ancestor of the LS engine line! That's like saying because Olds engineers worked on the Aurora engine, that it is decended from the Olds engines of the 1950's. It just won't wash.
Nobody seems interested in the facts! The fact is that the LS family is a clean sheet design, period. Sharing the same journal size on the crank throws does not make them directly related. That's like saying that all GM V8's of the 1970's were related because they used the same distributor cap and rotor!

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:


remember when pontiac was forced to use the chevy 350's statring in the 80's ? those engines evolved into the LT1 then the LS1 now the LS2. what other GM camaker was using these 350's ? buick? caddy? oldsmobile? as i remember it was a chevy engine and pontiac was forced into using the motor. pontiac didnt choose to use it. wasnt their motor. so thats why it is a chevy motor. this dosent sound of a hard concept to understand. might be tough for some of us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tell me, what parts of the LS1 is shared with the LT1 or SBC? Please show me a link from http://www.GM.com where it says the LS1 is a "Chevrolet" motor. PLEASE. I'll be waiting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

can you tell me what car the origional LT1 was put into? a camaro. who makes the slowmaro? you should know that the LT1 evolved into the LS1 which evolved into the LS2.

heres a link for ya

http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/z28lt1.html ( slowmaro link )

heres another
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicl.../70vette.frame ( corvette link )

i could go on and on but its obvious you cant admit that the LT1 is a "GM" engine.

heres a lonk for ya about the LS1

http://www.gm.com/company/racing/tec...orvetteC5R.htm

as you were saying.......

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> can you tell me what car the origional LT1 was put into? a camaro. who makes the slowmaro? you should know that the LT1 evolved into the LS1 which evolved into the LS2.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The LT-1 went in the Vette first, and the LS-1 is no more an "evolution of the LT-1" than it is of any other SBC. The LT-1 is a completely different engine than the LS-1. The LT-1 was basically an evolution of the old iron block SBC with aluminum heads and a few other mods.

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

can you tell me what car the origional LT1 was put into? a camaro. who makes the slowmaro? you should know that the LT1 evolved into the LS1 which evolved into the LS2.

heres a link for ya

http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/z28lt1.html ( slowmaro link )

heres another
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicl.../70vette.frame ( corvette link )

i could go on and on but its obvious you cant admit that the LT1 is a "GM" engine.

heres a lonk for ya about the LS1

http://www.gm.com/company/racing/tec...orvetteC5R.htm

as you were saying....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You took the short bus to school right?

Again, SHOW ME WHERE A GM SITE SAYS THE LS1 iS A CHEVROLET MOTOR. THe C5R says the LS1 is a GM engine, not a CHEVROLET engine.

The old LT-1 is a Chevy. The last LT1 was BASED off the old SBC and it WAS a GM Powertrain motor also.

The new LS1/LS2 share NOTHING but bearings and bore spacing with the old SBC. It was a clean sheet of paper design.

Keep trying and try to become some what educated on the subject at hand.

[Dragncar]

I do not even know where to start with this one.Some people just do not get it and never will.The 04 GTO is what it is.Some Austrailian car with a CHEVY based motor in it.The whole idea makes real Pontiac enthusiasts want to throw up.And yes if you think the new GTO was a great idea you are not a real Pontiac enthusiast by definition.I do not care if it is true that the only thing they share is bearings and bore spacing.It is still based on a Chevy.A Top Fuel aftermarket Hemi engine shares very little with old 426,I think it is only the bore spacing and camshaft centerline.But do you know what,they are still based on Chrysler Hemis.So they are Mopars.The Pontiac motor has been gone for 25 years now.But a funny thing is happening out there.We now have more Pontiac parts now available than when the motor was in production.Why,some people thought the motor should have never been canceled,some people love them.We are about to have 3 different aftermarket blocks available and 6 or 7 different types of heads.Not to mention all of the new rods we can now chose from.The 04 GTO should never have been built if this is the way they(GM) is going to do it.It was a mistake.And it is not closed minded to think so.

[Nickv]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
I do not even know where to start with this one.Some people just do not get it and never will.The 04 GTO is what it is.Some Austrailian car with a CHEVY based motor in it.The whole idea makes real Pontiac enthusiasts want to throw up.And yes if you think the new GTO was a great idea you are not a real Pontiac enthusiast by definition.I do not care if it is true that the only thing they share is bearings and bore spacing.It is still based on a Chevy.A Top Fuel aftermarket Hemi engine shares very little with old 426,I think it is only the bore spacing and camshaft centerline.But do you know what,they are still based on Chrysler Hemis.So they are Mopars.The Pontiac motor has been gone for 25 years now.But a funny thing is happening out there.We now have more Pontiac parts now available than when the motor was in production.Why,some people thought the motor should have never been canceled,some people love them.We are about to have 3 different aftermarket blocks available and 6 or 7 different types of heads.Not to mention all of the new rods we can now chose from.The 04 GTO should never have been built if this is the way they(GM) is going to do it.It was a mistake.And it is not closed minded to think so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah....

Your not a real Pontiac enthusiasts because someone likes the idea of the new GTO? LOL!!! That is the dumbest thing I've heard anyone say so far.

I take you don't believe the 1980-2002 Firebirds/TransAms were not "really" Pontiacs because they had SBC in them? Oh please. Nice ramblings.

[Nickv]

Well, seeing that the RAM IV engine was given the RPO LS1, seems rather fitting that the 04 GTO has an LS1.

[NaOH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
The whole idea makes real Pontiac enthusiasts want to throw up.And yes if you think the new GTO was a great idea you are not a real Pontiac enthusiast by definition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[rabon008]

dragncar wrote: The Pontiac motor has been gone for 25 years now.But a funny thing is happening out there.We now have more Pontiac parts now available than when the motor was in production.Why,some people thought the motor should have never been canceled,some people love them.We are about to have 3 different aftermarket blocks available and 6 or 7 different types of heads.Not to mention all of the new rods we can now chose from.

Interesting. Are all these parts (blocks, heads, rods, etc.) manufactured by Pontiac? I am just taking a wild guess here but I would think the answer is: No. If I'm correct, are you suggesting that GM should have contracted the construction of an aftermarket "Pontiac engine" and stuck that in the new GTO?

Really, GM wasn't about to put anything but their top of the line production engine into the GTO (even moving up to the LS2 in '05). I would think that the use of the LS1 and LS2 has pi$$ed off more "Corvette enthusiasts" than real Pontiac enthusiasts.

Once again, '04 GTO haters will find anything to whine about. Ok, I want to see a show of hands: How many "real Pontiac enthusiasts" think that, because the WS6 (made in Canada?) had the "dreaded" LS1 engine, it wasn't a real Trans Am? Remember guys, that horrible, nasty "Chevy motor" was also in the Camaro SS. Come on, you know you want to bash the WS6 now don't you?

Fact is: The LS1 is not a "Chevy motor", the WS6 was a Trans Am and the '04 GTO is a Pontiac GTO. There is simply nothing that all your whining can do about that.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

can you tell me what car the origional LT1 was put into? a camaro. who makes the slowmaro? you should know that the LT1 evolved into the LS1 which evolved into the LS2.

heres a link for ya

http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/z28lt1.html ( slowmaro link )

heres another
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicl.../70vette.frame ( corvette link )

i could go on and on but its obvious you cant admit that the LT1 is a "GM" engine.

heres a lonk for ya about the LS1

http://www.gm.com/company/racing/tec...orvetteC5R.htm

as you were saying....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You took the short bus to school right?

Again, SHOW ME WHERE A GM SITE SAYS THE LS1 iS A CHEVROLET MOTOR. THe C5R says the LS1 is a GM engine, not a CHEVROLET engine.

The old LT-1 is a Chevy. The last LT1 was BASED off the old SBC and it WAS a GM Powertrain motor also.

The new LS1/LS2 share NOTHING but bearings and bore spacing with the old SBC. It was a clean sheet of paper design.

Keep trying and try to become some what educated on the subject at hand. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you did read the first paragraph right ? the one in bold ? before you said show me where it says the LT1/LS1/LS6/LS2 was a chevy motor. i did that with the LT1. now you say the LS1 isnt a chevy motor but a "GM" motor. the site says GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8, yet the LS1 is much more than an offshoot from the small-block family tree. The LS1 continues the small-block's longstanding virtues of compact size, simplicity, reliability and high specific output. i can read between the lines here. yes the LS1 was a clean sheet of paper design. same with the "newer" LT1 or in other words the chevy 350 evolved into the LT1 which evolved into the LS1. who rode the short bus to school ?

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

what year did pontiac stop making their own engines? 78-9? hell they stopped making oldsmobiles let alone their own engines. what about buick? caddy? to make it easier what GM make still makes their own engines? what about the sbc thats been made for 50 +/- years and is still being made/evolved? there is a reason its called a SBC. not a SBGM.

[The Champ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
A Top Fuel aftermarket Hemi engine shares very little with old 426,I think it is only the bore spacing and camshaft centerline.But do you know what,they are still based on Chrysler Hemis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the Dodge is not running a Dodge motor, but a Chryler motor...

The Pontiac runs a GM motor.

There are no Chevy, Olds, Buick, Cadillac, or Pontiac motors anymore and there haven't been for years.

You can whine, kick and scream all you want, but that's the only option available - a GM powerplant.

You can enjoy them or you can complain about them.

It appears you've made your choice.

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

you did read the first paragraph right ? the one in bold ? before you said show me where it says the LT1/LS1/LS6/LS2 was a chevy motor. i did that with the LT1. now you say the LS1 isnt a chevy motor but a "GM" motor. the site says GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8, yet the LS1 is much more than an offshoot from the small-block family tree. The LS1 continues the small-block's longstanding virtues of compact size, simplicity, reliability and high specific output. i can read between the lines here. yes the LS1 was a clean sheet of paper design. same with the "newer" LT1 or in other words the chevy 350 evolved into the LT1 which evolved into the LS1. who rode the short bus to school ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't ASKING about the LT1 short bus boy. I was talking about the LS1.

Having roots and actually sharing parts are two totally different things. I know that is difficult for you to understand but it is fact. When you can't exchange ANY PARTS from a Small Block Chevy/LT1 to a LS1 that means they are NOT THE SAME.

If you think they are the same, please tell me, other than bearings, which parts interchange . And FYI, after 1992, when GM Powertrain was formed, there were no more CHEVY engines. That is fact. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[Dragncar]

Wow ,this is great.I thought I might "ramble" on a little more.Judging by the number of posts some of you guys have it is obvious that some of you spend too much time online and not enough time out in the garage.Do I think that 1980-2002 birds were "real" Pontiacs? Well No.(and I am not talking about the 80 turbo TA)The Camaro and the Firebird are built on the same platform.So the only real differance is the styling.They took the heart out of the car,the engine.Like I said,some people just do not get it and never will.But I will try and explain.If you get in one of those cars and turn the key and you do not hear a long rod high velocity intake port,gobs of mid range tourqe Pontiac,is the car a real Pontiac or something less.There are still some people at Pontiac who think so.Recently Pontiac took a late model bird over to the Butlers to do a clean installation of a updated traditional Pontiac engine.Why,you figure it out.And no I do not think Pontiac should have went to outside vendors to put a after market Pontiac engine in THAT car.It looks like a rice burner.But a real(traditional) Pontiac engine in GTO based on say the 95 Impala platform would have been very,very cool.But that would never happen so do not build it at all.The 04 GTO is a fraud.OK so onto this LS whatever stuff.Qustion???. If the sbc was never built,say it never existed.Would the LS1 be in existence.............well.....no.And that would make it what????A NEW MODERN DERIVATIVE OF THE SMALL BLOCK CHEVY V8.Clean sheat of paper or not.And the guy who wrote"So the Dodge is not running a Dodge motor but a Chryler Motor.The Pontiac runs a GM motor"Wow, how much do you know about Detroit cars and thier history.Chrysler,Dodge and Plymouth all ran the same famly of engines.They did not each have there own different engine designers and compete against each other as did Chevy,Olds,Buick,Cadalac and Pontiac.The General Motors inter divisional rivlry was great.And if people knew of all the motors,cars and projects that Pontiac wanted to build back in the day and what Chevy had to do with holding Pontiac back maybe more people would think like I do.Yea I know I am hard core but the idea of getting rid of our beloved engine and replacing it with the enemys makes me sick.Look I am sure it is a fine car and fun to drive and all that,but a real GTO.I do not think so.

[Nickv]

ah. Yeah...

[carbking]

For a point of historical accuracy, Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, and DeSoto DID in fact have their own engines; as did the Ford Motor Company. The various divisions started using each others engines much earlier than GM (passenger); although GM trucks used various modified passenger division engines as early as the 1920's.

Even after the various Chrysler divisions started sharing engines, the divisions had some say as to accessories. Example, Plymouth used the "price leader" Carter BBR series on their 230, while Dodge used a much more expensive, and much superior Stromberg on their 230.

As to the "GM corporate whatchamacallit": If you took one of these, painted it blushing orange, and added a carburetor; and then set it side by side with an SBC, methinks it would difficult to tell the difference.

You know the selection of orange for the SBC was an early example of ergometrics. The SBC knew it wasn't good enough to be painted Pontiac Blue, and blushed Chevrolet orange. It was painted accordingly

OK, you guys can go back to arguing again.

Jon.

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Wow ,this is great.I thought I might "ramble" on a little more.Judging by the number of posts some of you guys have it is obvious that some of you spend too much time online and not enough time out in the garage.Do I think that 1980-2002 birds were "real" Pontiacs? Well No.(and I am not talking about the 80 turbo TA)The Camaro and the Firebird are built on the same platform.So the only real differance is the styling.They took the heart out of the car,the engine.Like I said,some people just do not get it and never will.But I will try and explain.If you get in one of those cars and turn the key and you do not hear a long rod high velocity intake port,gobs of mid range tourqe Pontiac,is the car a real Pontiac or something less.There are still some people at Pontiac who think so.Recently Pontiac took a late model bird over to the Butlers to do a clean installation of a updated traditional Pontiac engine.Why,you figure it out.And no I do not think Pontiac should have went to outside vendors to put a after market Pontiac engine in THAT car.It looks like a rice burner.But a real(traditional) Pontiac engine in GTO based on say the 95 Impala platform would have been very,very cool.But that would never happen so do not build it at all.The 04 GTO is a fraud.OK so onto this LS whatever stuff.Qustion???. If the sbc was never built,say it never existed.Would the LS1 be in existence.............well.....no.And that would make it what????A NEW MODERN DERIVATIVE OF THE SMALL BLOCK CHEVY V8.Clean sheat of paper or not.And the guy who wrote"So the Dodge is not running a Dodge motor but a Chryler Motor.The Pontiac runs a GM motor"Wow, how much do you know about Detroit cars and thier history.Chrysler,Dodge and Plymouth all ran the same famly of engines.They did not each have there own different engine designers and compete against each other as did Chevy,Olds,Buick,Cadalac and Pontiac.The General Motors inter divisional rivlry was great.And if people knew of all the motors,cars and projects that Pontiac wanted to build back in the day and what Chevy had to do with holding Pontiac back maybe more people would think like I do.Yea I know I am hard core but the idea of getting rid of our beloved engine and replacing it with the enemys makes me sick.Look I am sure it is a fine car and fun to drive and all that,but a real GTO.I do not think so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A derivative would mean it is related. It isn't. You know engines? LOL, yea ok....

And FYI, they killed the PONTIAC motor over 20 years ago...time to move on...

[The Champ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
For a point of historical accuracy, Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, and DeSoto DID in fact have their own engines; as did the Ford Motor Company. The various divisions started using each others engines much earlier than GM (passenger); although GM trucks used various modified passenger division engines as early as the 1920's.

Even after the various Chrysler divisions started sharing engines, the divisions had some say as to accessories. Example, Plymouth used the "price leader" Carter BBR series on their 230, while Dodge used a much more expensive, and much superior Stromberg on their 230. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for supporting the correct information that I tried imparting to dragncar...

I guess, when I posted that information I mistakenly assumed most people knew and understood the fact that all of the big three have gone to corporate engines. GM, to their credit, held out the longest.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by dragncar:
But a real(traditional) Pontiac engine in GTO based on say the 95 Impala platform would have been very,very cool. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would the GTO be put on an Impala platform? The GTO was never built on the "big" car chassis. That would have been a bigger fraud than any of the things that you claim.

Maybe you need to get away from the gas fumes in the garage - it's obviously affecting your senses...

[rabon008]

To car-n-"drag", oops, I mean dragncar: So you want to put a "true" Pontiac engine in what and call it a GTO? Would that be an Impala? Um...last I knew the Impala was what GM brand? Yeah, big 4 door chevy. That would make a real Pontiac GTO, suuuure....

As to The Champ not knowing anything about Detroit and its engines...LOL...He knows a lot more than you can imagine about just about anything that has come out of Detroit.

Here's a bit of info for you: In 1957 Pontiac started putting 5.7 litre engines in some of its cars. It was a 347 cube (compared to the LS1, which is 346 cubes). So, if you must insist that the LS1 is an evolution of, derivative of or based on a previous GM small block I ask you this: Is the LS1 5.7 litre (346 c.i.d.) an evolution of the 350 Chevy or the 347 Pontiac?

[rabon008]

Just an extra bit of info: Chevy didn't start putting 350 c.i.d. engines in cars until 67-68. I believe if any division of GM can lay claim to the 5.7 litre V8 it would be Pontiac for the 347 c.i.d. in 1957.