Then and Now - Page 14 - PY Online Forums

Crow_T_Robot · #**261** 01-28-2005, 11:29 AM

What 's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.

3 Deuce 64 · #**262** 01-28-2005, 12:30 PM

except for the )$ GTO

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**263** 01-29-2005, 01:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
just to let you know im not a expert. i dont claim to be and prolly never will. thats why i buy books and learn. if i was an expert i wouldnt be on here asking for comments or questions about stuff that people have done or have a better way of doing it. why do i have to use technical data to prove my point when i can use common sense? like i said before if you cant understand common sense then you wont understand technical data. pontiacs were made since 78/9. but the real pontiacs were when the engines were made by pontiac. the others just have the badges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm..... better call Pontiac and tell them to close up shop! I wonder if they know that they they don't exist?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>you keep on telling me to find this of find that but you cant answer one question ive been asking you. what part of the 04 GTO is a pontiac ( found only on or in pontiacs ) other then the badges? you cant side step that question forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an easy one. Again...... The new GTO is the ONLY car available in it's price range that has it's features, just like 1964. It is in every way a modern day GTO. It is a fast, yet practical daily driver (race on Sunday, drive on Monday). If you think a modern day GTO should have a carbed 389, then you are truly living in fantasy land. That will never, ever happen. An exclusively Pontiac engine has only a smidge more of a chance. What economic sense does it make when there is an excellent engine that meets the performance emissions and durability criteria already available.

what parts on or in the new GTO are pontiac and only pontiac ? besides the badges ? thats not answering my question comparing this to the 64. yes i know pontiac wont make engines again thats why this car ISNT a "real" pontiac. just badges.

I have always been critical of the SBC due to the fact that it was a compromise between performance and cost. It was the cheapest engine in (with a few exceptions) the cheapest GM cars. Look at an old school Poncho compared to a trditional SBC, and the SBC parts look like like they came from a lawnmower engine. The LS-1 is NOT a small block Chevy. What SBC (or BBC or Pontiac for that matter) had 6 bolt mains, roller valvetrains etc.

yes SBC has been around since 1955. parts are cheap and readialy available. im not gonna argue with that. what BBC or pontiac had a 6 bolt main ? none. once again its R&D's job to make a stong engine. its their job to make the weak points strong and strong points stronger (evolution). 350 carb engine turned into L98,LT1,LT4,LS1,LS6,LS2 (keeps on getting better) if the L "series" engines are a small block with improvments on the small block dos it still make it a small block? and the 350 small block was made by chevy right? this is where the common sense comes into play.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>maybe you should go to the BMV and get that title changed. ill be waiting on your answers first before i find this or find that from GM sites or GM workers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're getting me confused with someone else. (I assume that you were addressing me, since I jokingly mentioned the DMV)

I have answered your question many times, and either you choose to ignore it, don't comprehend it, or don't agree. The new GTO is well worthy of the name. I agree that it could be a bit more retro styled, but other than that, it IS a modern day GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont find comparing a 04 GTO to "like the 64" answers my question of what on the 04 gto is found in only pontiacs? other then the badges. its not the engine,frame,or any other major mechnical components.

ill still wait for your answer.

Jeff R · #**264** 01-29-2005, 02:35 AM

I grew up with some really great All-American cars...'66 Continental, '69 Grand Prix, '68 Dart Sport, '70 Chevelle, '68 & '85 442s, '72 and '73 Cutlass Supremes. Those were awesome times but long gone now, and that's why we collect and restore all the great cars seen on this board...to preserve an important part of Americian history and culture. But with today's technology and global economy there are no more truly American-made cars, and unfortunately there never will be again. It's called change, and some folks have a tougher time adjusting to it than others. As for myself, I say so what if the new GTO is a re-badged Holden and the new Chryslers are Daimlers in disguise. It's bonus-time for me at work and my tax refund is right around the corner, and I guarantee I'll be buying an '04 or '05 GTO very soon. Not because it says Pontiac or GTO, but because it's a high-tech, freakin' performance machine. I will get the recessed grilles and it will of course be blue on blue just to pay tribute to my true passion, my TA.

Tripower455 · #**265** 01-29-2005, 11:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> i dont find comparing a 04 GTO to "like the 64" answers my question of what on the 04 gto is found in only pontiacs? other then the badges. its not the engine,frame,or any other major mechnical components.

ill still wait for your answer.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fuel rail covers. The seats.

What is your point? The same argument again. Does Pontiac still make cars? A '69 GTO might work as a driver for some, but not most people. Only an idiot would leave a nice vintage GTO unattended for any amount of time or put tons of miles driving to and from work in one. Would you have preferred that the Pontiac marque dissapear with the 265 and 301?

Go and find a car with the same features as the new GTO. You'll have to get into a BMW to get a similar, overall car, but pay more than twice as much for it.

The new GTO is more of an individual than ANY of the original ones, since back in the day, you could go buy 4 almost identical versions of the GTO (Chevelle, 442 and GS) with slightly different drivtrains and trim, not to mention the Tempests, Cutlasses, Skylarks etc, making a GTO look very close to a lot of other cars on the road.

What car, can you go buy right now, that shares anything with the new GTO (other than a Corvette)?

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**266** 01-29-2005, 10:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> i dont find comparing a 04 GTO to "like the 64" answers my question of what on the 04 gto is found in only pontiacs? other then the badges. its not the engine,frame,or any other major mechnical components.

ill still wait for your answer.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fuel rail covers. The seats.

so those diffrences makes it a pontiac ?

What is your point? The same argument again. Does Pontiac still make cars? A '69 GTO might work as a driver for some, but not most people. Only an idiot would leave a nice vintage GTO unattended for any amount of time or put tons of miles driving to and from work in one. Would you have preferred that the Pontiac marque dissapear with the 265 and 301?

i bought it to enjoy it. and i do everytime i turn the key. im not gonna be like some and spend a lot of money to buy the car then spend 2 or 3 times as much to restore it for the car to sit in a garage.

Go and find a car with the same features as the new GTO. You'll have to get into a BMW to get a similar, overall car, but pay more than twice as much for it.

i could find a 4 banger import that costs just as much and is better in acceleration,handleing,and 1/4 mile times. theres somethign wrong with this picture. but i dont think i would buy either a import or new GTO.

The new GTO is more of an individual than ANY of the original ones, since back in the day, you could go buy 4 almost identical versions of the GTO (Chevelle, 442 and GS) with slightly different drivtrains and trim, not to mention the Tempests, Cutlasses, Skylarks etc, making a GTO look very close to a lot of other cars on the road.

but pontiac made the engine. you can say the same thing about a Z28,SS,T/A,Firehawk as well (modern car with slight diffrences and the same motor) accept the seats and fuel rail covers (i know thats a HUGE diffrence) but thats just the domestics that the new GTO looks like not to mention the imports. more individual huh ?

What car, can you go buy right now, that shares _anything_ with the new GTO (other than a Corvette)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what would you want to share with the new GTO ?

Tripower455 · #**267** 01-29-2005, 10:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> what would you want to share with the new GTO ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever.......

3 Deuce 64 · #**268** 01-29-2005, 11:14 PM

I think The new Cady is running with the simular drive line in one of the models and the ET s might be faster .that one I couldn't find the documentation so if you tell me I'm rong my feelings won't be hurt . We went and looked at the new GTs today Ford did a nice job on keeping the retro look of the 67 8 body style but I have to admit the interior in the GTO has it beat .But I still Love the new T Bird the did a great job with it out of my price range but If I had the $$ I would buy it over the GTO I am not saying it will out perform it because it won't it's just a sporty lx car but I would love to park one of them next to my 56 bird as I wanted to park an 04 GTO next to my 64 GTO but after actually comparing $$ for $$ I would say that the Ausy built SB half breed ah GTO gives you the biggest bang for your buck . There Chris I said it but it's still not a true blue but as close as we will ever get so I guess we are stuck with it if we want the name

rabon008 · #**269** 01-30-2005, 12:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:

The fuel rail covers. The seats.

so those diffrences makes it a pontiac ?

What is your point?...

What car, can you go buy right now, that shares _anything_ with the new GTO (other than a Corvette)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what would you want to share with the new GTO ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that Tripower455 has answered your question, why don't you get back to my original question, of which you tried so hard to weasel out? Why, in your expert opinion, is the LS1 inferior to a vintage Pontiac engine? Once again, we'll wait to hear your great technical wisdom on the subject of what makes those older Pontiacs so awesome and the LS1 so horrible. Don't try to weasel out of it this time. Just answer the question because, if you don't, then you will be admitting that the LS1 is better. Tell us EXACTLY why the LS1 is not.

red70goat · #**270** 01-30-2005, 07:43 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabon:
Why, in your expert opinion, is the LS1 inferior to a vintage Pontiac engine? (QUOTE]

Hey, I don't even agree with that one! No way is an old Poncho powerplant superior to the one in my C5: Nearly 400 hp, 27 mpg, no gas guzzler tax, and starts on a dime everytime regardless of weather. While I would have like to have seen something uniquelly Pontiac in a new GTO they do have one helluva powerplant in there now.

rabon008 · #**271** 01-30-2005, 08:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabon:
Why, in your expert opinion, is the LS1 inferior to a vintage Pontiac engine? (QUOTE]

Hey, I don't even agree with that one! No way is an old Poncho powerplant superior to the one in my C5: Nearly 400 hp, 27 mpg, no gas guzzler tax, and starts on a dime everytime regardless of weather. While I would have like to have seen something uniquelly Pontiac in a new GTO they do have one helluva powerplant in there now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally, we can agree on something. Now, when GM comes out with the LS3 for the Vette with 396 cubes and the LS-P for the GTO with 389 cubes, then maybe everyone will be happy.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**272** 01-31-2005, 12:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:

The fuel rail covers. The seats.

so those diffrences makes it a pontiac ?

What is your point?...

What car, can you go buy right now, that shares _anything_ with the new GTO (other than a Corvette)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what would you want to share with the new GTO ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that Tripower455 has answered your question, why don't you get back to my original question, of which you tried so hard to weasel out? Why, in your expert opinion, is the LS1 inferior to a vintage Pontiac engine? Once again, we'll wait to hear your great technical wisdom on the subject of what makes those older Pontiacs so awesome and the LS1 so horrible. Don't try to weasel out of it this time. Just answer the question because, if you don't, then you will be admitting that the LS1 is better. Tell us EXACTLY why the LS1 is not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges?

rabon008 · #**273** 01-31-2005, 07:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, there is no such thing as a gtslow.

Second, Tripower455 already answered you.

Finally: The seats. The front fascia and much of the rear fascia. The brake calipers. Much of the instrument panel/dash. The fuelrail/coil covers.

Now, all you can say is: "I like the vintage Pontiac engines better". You can't even give one instance of how they are better?

3 Deuce 64 · #**274** 01-31-2005, 09:05 AM

The Old ones are appreciating in value rather than depreciating .that new left over 04 is 8500 under list and now they are below the NADA trade in used value and still can't sell it

I may stop by and harass them some more today Tell them I might consider trading in my 69 Firebird and 5 K cash for it beacause it does ride a bit better than the bird

Mr_GTO · #**275** 01-31-2005, 09:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
The Old ones are appreciating in value rather than depreciating .that new left over 04 is 8500 under list and now they are below the NADA trade in used value and still can't sell it

I may stop by and harass them some more today Tell them I might consider trading in my 69 Firebird and 5 K cash for it beacause it does ride a bit better than the bird <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain to me which new cars appreciate in value?

3 Deuce 64 · #**276** 01-31-2005, 10:44 AM

You can't even give one instance of how they are better?

I thought that was a good instance

rabon008 · #**277** 01-31-2005, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
You can't even give one instance of how they are better?

I thought that was a good instance

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The question was in reference to the LS1 versus vintage Pontiac engines. Try to keep up.

Tripower455 · #**278** 01-31-2005, 12:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The Old ones are appreciating in value rather than depreciating <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They didn't when they were new, or even 10-15 years old.

I was still able to buy decent GTO's in the mid '80s for half of what they cost new. In fact, I did.

Tripower455 · #**279** 01-31-2005, 12:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. Because your friend blew up an LS1, and then didn't, even after trying, blow up an LT-1, you've deduced that a vintage Pontiac is better than an LS-1?

Is deductive reasoning a difficult subject for you? (rhetorical question, btw....)

Why don't you and your friend try to blow up a stock, vintage pontiac. I bet you are able to do it pretty easily. Why do you think it's so hard to find a GTO with it's original engine? I love the traditional Pontiac for what it is, but wouldn't even consider running one up to 6K on a regular basis in stock form.

I'd wager a substantial bet that the LS-1 will stand up to equal treatment a lot better than a stock '69 400 Pontiac of similar power.

BTW, have you run any new GTO's with your '69 GTslOw yet? I think you'll be dissapointed and want to sell it after doing so.....

3 Deuce 64 · #**280** 01-31-2005, 02:02 PM

my answer to that is you can't compare the two ones an Pontiac and ones not, ones a 41 year old butt kicker with a history and track reccord and ones not , ones computer designed and ones not . But for a Pontiac motor that started the muscel car revolution and was in the dark ages as you guys make it seem . put one of your new ones up against ol man taylors 64 is it stock ? no but it shows what could have been done to the old iron and I'm sure he didn't even start to put the investment in that GM put in the SB ls8 that was originally designed for Corvette ah I think that wears a chevy badge. I guess if you relly want to compair apples for apples your going to have to take some of the old motors that have been built to todays standards and then line them up .

On the second run, Jim cut a quick 10.80 @ 129.31 mph. Further racing was suspended as a roll bar was clearly required. (Today a full roll cage would be needed.) The car was fast enough for Jim and he decided to call it quits

So if Pontiac hadn't been shut down by corporate and forced to run the standard GM motor where would it have been today it was killing chevys back then and it most likely still would have been killing them but Pontica put the dear flag ship line in 2nd place so corporate killed PMD that's history and a fact the guys that worked there are still alive ask them I have a taped interview of J D and he said that on tape