Then and Now - Page 13 - PY Online Forums

charlzm · #**241** 01-24-2005, 07:35 PM

I'm with you, RedGoat - when I saw that thing a few years ago, I groaned and went looking for something less... I don't know, ridiculous? Ugly? Wince-inducing?

Say what you will about the '04+ bland styling, but I think understated is better than just plain ludicrous any day.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**242** 01-24-2005, 11:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.

Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac.

Tripower455 · #**243** 01-26-2005, 09:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.

Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '04 says Pontiac on it? It's not a Pontiac? Is my '66 a Pontiac, since it also says Pontiac on it. So did my Formula, Grand Prixs, etc...... Were they Pontiacs? Now I'm almost as confused as you are!

rabon008 · #**244** 01-26-2005, 09:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.

Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, you pick and choose who is correct about writing whether or not the LS1 is a "chevy small block"?

How about you, not someone else, but YOU give us the technical reasons why the LS1 is a "small block chevy"? Can you give us valid technical points that demonstrate that this engine is a "chevy". What is the length of the block compared to the LT-1 or the sbc? What are the comparisons of block widths? Will a gasket kit made for a sbc work on a LS1? Can you interchange the crankshafts? Is the block casting technique the same? Is the firing order the same? Before you come back with some dumb response about this guy says this or that guy says that GO GET US THOSE ANSWERS if you think you're smart enough. Or are you scared you'll find out how ignorant you've been?

3 Deuce 64 · #**245** 01-26-2005, 09:34 PM

LS2: An Inside Look
We open it up to see what makes the new Gen IV small-block tick

By Barry Kluczyk

When it was introduced for the 1997 model year in the then-new fifth-generation Corvette, the Gen III small-block was indeed a revolution. It was the first redesign of the basic small-block architecture since Chevrolet introduced it in 1955.

Although it retained the characteristic 4.4-inch bore centers, there was nothing else really the same between the old and the new. Not surprisingly, there was some initial trepidation on the part of enthusiasts. After all, several generations had grown up with the ubiquitous small-block Chevy. Its performance, reliability and affordability were the measures against which other engines were compared.

Hummmm it may be different but it still says small block Chevy " It was the first redesign of the basic small-block architecture since Chevrolet introduced it in 1955. "" as I read that it still says small block chevy and it was originally Designed for the CORVETTE is that not a Chevy hummmmm

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**246** 01-27-2005, 12:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.

Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, you pick and choose who is correct about writing whether or not the LS1 is a "chevy small block"?

How about you, not someone else, but YOU give us the technical reasons why the LS1 is a "small block chevy"? Can you give us valid technical points that demonstrate that this engine is a "chevy". What is the length of the block compared to the LT-1 or the sbc? What are the comparisons of block widths? Will a gasket kit made for a sbc work on a LS1? Can you interchange the crankshafts? Is the block casting technique the same? Is the firing order the same? Before you come back with some dumb response about this guy says this or that guy says that GO GET US THOSE ANSWERS if you think you're smart enough. Or are you scared you'll find out how ignorant you've been? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry im not into chevies. if i was id write a book too. its as simple as this example. chevy made the 350 since 1955. along the way they have made improvments (R&D is supposed to do that) they find the weak points and make them stronger. they make the strong points even stronger. thats why some factory heads flow better then others and factory part X is better then the same part Y ( cranks,cams...) thats why there was hp/torque diffrences between the same size engines in diffrent years. look at the L98,LT1,LT4,LS1,LS6,LS2. why is one better then the other ? this is the evolution of the small block. from 78/9 on pontiac couldnt make their own engines. what other Gm make was making engines? chevy? do you think GM would piss off pontiac fans who buy the t/a,firehawk,formula,whatever by saying its a chevy LS1? you know and i know they wouldnt its not a good marketing move. i dont need technical data to prove that. its called common sense. if you cant understand that i doubt you can understand technical data. what part of the car is pontiac AND pontiac only other then the badge ? why dont you answer that question first. nobody has yet and i doubt anybody ever will. hows that for technical data? besides that im not the one who says "show me a Gm site that says this or says that" and when i bring up a point that several books written about the CHEVY LS1 since its not a "GM book" then it doesnt mean anything to certin people. you say im the one who chooses what/whos writing is and isnt correct? what does that make Mr_GTO? i brought up the point that jim hands book isnt a "GM book" but yet he knows his sh** and people bought it,read it, and learned from it. oh by the way i dont know about you but when i think of pontiac i dont think of a 5.7L. i think of 389,400,421,428,455.

once again tell me what on this car is pontiac other then the badge.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**247** 01-27-2005, 12:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.

Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '04 says Pontiac on it? It's not a Pontiac? Is my '66 a Pontiac, since it also says Pontiac on it. So did my Formula, Grand Prixs, etc...... Were they Pontiacs? Now I'm almost as confused as you are! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heres a formula for what makes a pontiac a pontiac.

pontiac engine + pontiac body + pontiac badge = pontiac (old GTO's)

chevy LS whatever (or any other engine that is made to "share" between makes/models) + australlian body + pontiac badge = NOT a pontiac (new GTO's)

just my opinion.

Tripower455 · #**248** 01-27-2005, 03:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
heres a formula for what makes a pontiac a pontiac.

pontiac engine + pontiac body + pontiac badge = pontiac (old GTO's)

chevy LS whatever (or any other engine that is made to "share" between makes/models) + australlian body + pontiac badge = NOT a pontiac (new GTO's)

just my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, there hasn't been a Pontiac made since the Fiero? Wow.......

pont3 · #**249** 01-27-2005, 08:33 AM

So based on that criteria, no Pontiacs have been made since 1981. We have been misled by GM for the last 24 years. That means the '79 Trans AM with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac or the '79 Bonneville with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac, or the '72 Ventura with the 307 Chevy was not a Pontiac and the etc, etc, etc.

This is absolutely amazing!!!

3 Deuce 64 · #**250** 01-27-2005, 09:00 AM

Now you are catching on I have thought pretty much that was the picture Pontiac should be Pontiac Olds should be olds Buick should be buick and CHEVY SHOULD be Chevy

Mr_GTO · #**251** 01-27-2005, 10:19 AM

Barry Kluczyk is a WRITER, not a employee of GM.

Damn some of you people are dumb as dirt.

IF Dave Hill says the LS1 is a "Chevy" or anyone from GM POwertrain, then I will say it. If you can find a quote from ANWHERE from them, please let me know ok?

3 Deuce 64 · #**252** 01-27-2005, 12:03 PM

Tripower455 · #**253** 01-27-2005, 01:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
Now you are catching on I have thought pretty much that was the picture Pontiac should be Pontiac Olds should be olds Buick should be buick and CHEVY SHOULD be Chevy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, is my 2004 GTO a Pontiac?

If not, I better get over to the DMV and get the title changed!

If I put BBC rods in my 455, will it become a Chevy, since it will have more Chevy parts in it than the LS-1 at that point?

3 Deuce 64 · #**254** 01-27-2005, 01:14 PM

Well There is no question what this is it's a then. to bad we couldn't have seen a now !!! But There is no Pontiac Motor Division

pont3 · #**255** 01-27-2005, 01:17 PM

Exactly! So until Pontiac decides to build an engine again, there will be no more Pontiac cars. [LOL]

rabon008 · #**256** 01-27-2005, 09:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

sorry im not into chevies. if i was id write a book too. its as simple as this example. chevy made the 350 since 1955. along the way they have made improvments (R&D is supposed to do that) they find the weak points and make them stronger. they make the strong points even stronger. thats why some factory heads flow better then others and factory part X is better then the same part Y ( cranks,cams...) thats why there was hp/torque diffrences between the same size engines in diffrent years. look at the L98,LT1,LT4,LS1,LS6,LS2. why is one better then the other ? this is the evolution of the small block. from 78/9 on pontiac couldnt make their own engines. what other Gm make was making engines? chevy? do you think GM would piss off pontiac fans who buy the t/a,firehawk,formula,whatever by saying its a chevy LS1? you know and i know they wouldnt its not a good marketing move. i dont need technical data to prove that. its called common sense. if you cant understand that i doubt you can understand technical data. what part of the car is pontiac AND pontiac only other then the badge ? why dont you answer that question first. nobody has yet and i doubt anybody ever will. hows that for technical data? besides that im not the one who says "show me a Gm site that says this or says that" and when i bring up a point that several books written about the CHEVY LS1 since its not a "GM book" then it doesnt mean anything to certin people. you say im the one who chooses what/whos writing is and isnt correct? what does that make Mr_GTO? i brought up the point that jim hands book isnt a "GM book" but yet he knows his sh** and people bought it,read it, and learned from it. oh by the way i dont know about you but when i think of pontiac i dont think of a 5.7L. i think of 389,400,421,428,455.

once again tell me what on this car is pontiac other then the badge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are how old? Did I read 22 in another post? If so, then according to your definition of what a "real" Pontiac is, you have never driven a "real" Pontiac new from the dealer. The technical reasons as to why you claim the LS1 is a chevy are the only things that would be valid in this discussion. You can't make the LS1 into a chevy with technical arguments because you have none. Does Jim Hand's book (as you so like to praise) tell you how to turn an old 350 chevy into an LS1 by some few simple modifications? No, it does not. Why don't you call Jim Hand and ask him if the LS1 is a chevy engine and get his technical reasons that make it so? You seem incapable of coming up with them on your own. If he's got them written down in his book then why don't you qoute those technical reasons? You obviously don't want to learn anything for yourself and are just interested in spouting "chevy engine" - "chevy engine" - "chevy engine" - "chevy engine" until you have convinced yourself that you can't be wrong so there's no reason to look up the technical details of the engine.

Since you are obviously so hung up on the LS1 being inferior to vintage Pontiac engines JUST because it is a "chevy engine" (again its not) then I will give you another assignment. Tell us SPECIFICALLY what makes the vintage Pontiac engines superior to the LS1? Come on here's a task that an engine expert such as yourself ought to be able to handle. There has to be something (other than the friggin' color) that makes those vinatge Pontiacs put the modern LS1 to shame. Let's here your vast wisdom on this subject.

PS. Concerning the original debate regarding technical reasons that you think the LS1 is a "chevy engine" here's some incentive: For every truly technical reason that you give showing the LS1 is a "chevy engine" I will give you 2 points showing that the designers of the LS1 where heavily influenced by Pontiac engines (particulary from the 1950's).

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**257** 01-27-2005, 11:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
heres a formula for what makes a pontiac a pontiac.

pontiac engine + pontiac body + pontiac badge = pontiac (old GTO's)

chevy LS whatever (or any other engine that is made to "share" between makes/models) + australlian body + pontiac badge = NOT a pontiac (new GTO's)

just my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, there hasn't been a Pontiac made since the Fiero? Wow....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in my opinion there hasnt been a pontiac made since 78/9. i dont want to knock you formula becuase i love that body style. and the L whatever engines were great engines in their times/currently. i could have bought a new t/a or firehwak but i decided on the 69 because to me its a real pontiac. sure it would be nice to have a modern car but i couldnt pick one over my 69.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**258** 01-27-2005, 11:12 PM

just to let you know im not a expert. i dont claim to be and prolly never will. thats why i buy books and learn. if i was an expert i wouldnt be on here asking for comments or questions about stuff that people have done or have a better way of doing it. why do i have to use technical data to prove my point when i can use common sense? like i said before if you cant understand common sense then you wont understand technical data. pontiacs were made since 78/9. but the real pontiacs were when the engines were made by pontiac. the others just have the badges. you keep on telling me to find this of find that but you cant answer one question ive been asking you. what part of the 04 GTO is a pontiac ( found only on or in pontiacs ) other then the badges? you cant side step that question forever. maybe you should go to the BMV and get that title changed. ill be waiting on your answers first before i find this or find that from GM sites or GM workers.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**259** 01-27-2005, 11:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pont3:
So based on that criteria, no Pontiacs have been made since 1981. We have been misled by GM for the last 24 years. That means the '79 Trans AM with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac or the '79 Bonneville with the Olds 403 was not a Pontiac, or the '72 Ventura with the 307 Chevy was not a Pontiac and the etc, etc, etc.

This is absolutely amazing!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good job you can read and understand simple sentances.

Tripower455 · #**260** 01-28-2005, 10:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
just to let you know im not a expert. i dont claim to be and prolly never will. thats why i buy books and learn. if i was an expert i wouldnt be on here asking for comments or questions about stuff that people have done or have a better way of doing it. why do i have to use technical data to prove my point when i can use common sense? like i said before if you cant understand common sense then you wont understand technical data. pontiacs were made since 78/9. but the real pontiacs were when the engines were made by pontiac. the others just have the badges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm..... better call Pontiac and tell them to close up shop! I wonder if they know that they they don't exist?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>you keep on telling me to find this of find that but you cant answer one question ive been asking you. what part of the 04 GTO is a pontiac ( found only on or in pontiacs ) other then the badges? you cant side step that question forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an easy one. Again...... The new GTO is the ONLY car available in it's price range that has it's features, just like 1964. It is in every way a modern day GTO. It is a fast, yet practical daily driver (race on Sunday, drive on Monday). If you think a modern day GTO should have a carbed 389, then you are truly living in fantasy land. That will never, ever happen. An exclusively Pontiac engine has only a smidge more of a chance. What economic sense does it make when there is an excellent engine that meets the performance emissions and durability criteria already available.

I have always been critical of the SBC due to the fact that it was a compromise between performance and cost. It was the cheapest engine in (with a few exceptions) the cheapest GM cars. Look at an old school Poncho compared to a trditional SBC, and the SBC parts look like like they came from a lawnmower engine. The LS-1 is NOT a small block Chevy. What SBC (or BBC or Pontiac for that matter) had 6 bolt mains, roller valvetrains etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>maybe you should go to the BMV and get that title changed. ill be waiting on your answers first before i find this or find that from GM sites or GM workers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're getting me confused with someone else. (I assume that you were addressing me, since I jokingly mentioned the DMV)

I have answered your question many times, and either you choose to ignore it, don't comprehend it, or don't agree. The new GTO is well worthy of the name. I agree that it could be a bit more retro styled, but other than that, it IS a modern day GTO.