[Matador-IV]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

One of my responsibilities would have been to review Wangers' work and make sure that it was accurate and could be substantiated.

Haaa.....that's a full time job right there!!

.

[John V.]

More of my opinions:

3. I believe Wangers contends he and DeLorean came up with the original idea as the '64 Model Year approached (August '63?). IMO, the idea was germinating well before that, perhaps in the late winter of '63. The Pontiac 326 V8 had already been fitted into the '63 Tempest chassis as an option. The 421SD Tempests had actually been produced. One had to be brain dead not to recognize the 389 could be readily adapted to the planned '64 A body Model which would have been all but ready for production by late winter '63. If there was any "trick" to it, it would have been how to gain Corp. approval for it. I think the naming was pure DeLorean. Whether Wangers would have had any understanding that an option package needed no Corp. blessing, I do not know. I'm guessing the DeLorean and the Marketing people had knowledge of that. And as they say, the rest is history.

4. The GTO may have come about even if GM hadn't invoked the "racing ban". PMD wasn't in business to win races, it was in business to sell cars. The GTO may have come about in any event to capitalize on PMD's racing success. I do not recall who ordered PMD out of racing. Possibly it was then Chevy GM & GM Corp. Semon E. (Bunkie) Knudsen who was tasked to lay the law down and get DeLorean in line.

5. I believe this question is pointing to the same Bunkie Knudsen. He came in in '56, then hired "Pete" Estes as his Chief Engineer. Estes brought in DeLorean and the 3 in succession served as PMD General Managers, each contributing to the turn around at PMD. As far as the Engine Option, I think that would be the mid year '57 introduction of the Tri-Power that had been developed under the guidance of Estes.

7. Depends on what the definition of RPO is. I have not seen a '63 Order Form but my suspicion is that the 421SD was a Special Equipment Option and this option most likely would have been listed on the All Series Special Equipment Order Form, if such a Form existed in '63 and I think it probably did. ASSE Order Form options weren't all exotic. Trailering Packages, Police & Taxi Options, Heavy Duty Frame, and the like were some of the things found on the Special Equipment Order Form. Whether the 421SD was given a Sales Code as a specific Special Equipment Option or was ordered by written instruction on the Special Equipment Order Form, most of us might consider it a "limited" production option as opposed to a RPO.

8. I agree with OMT on this one, DeLorean would not become PMD GM until '65. But I have always wondered how involved Estes was as PMD GM at the time. Estes was an Engineer, DeLorean was his hand picked protege. I'm pretty sure they were always close. Seems to me DeLorean would have kept Estes well inside the loop and it may have even been Estes that had a hand in figuring out how to circumvent the Policy Committee to bring the GTO option to reality. Another little known factoid. DeLorean must have had a high regard for Bill Collins, about a decade later he lured Collins away from GM to join him at DMC for that ill-fated venture.

10. The name may actually have been the "Engineering Policy Group", this group was involved in the development of new models. Alfred P. Sloan referred to it as the Engineering Policy Group and it was still being referred to as the Engineering Policy Group well into the '70s.

12. According to what I have surmised about the no. of Pontiac Dealers, there were 27 Zone Sales Offices. Within each Zone, it appears that there may have been 500 or so Sales Outlets (Dealers) that were authorized to sell Pontiacs. An estimate would place the total at about 10,000. I think it is very unlikely that any records exist indicating the no. of GTOs initially ordered by each of these sales outlets. Obviously, not every Dealer ordered one. In fact, I would guess that many of the early production units, were shipped to Zone Stock, not Dealer Ordered vehicles at all, and sat in Zone Inventory storage until Dealers purchased them for their own inventory. It is believed that many, or all, Zones received a GTO intended to be used to generate publicity. One such car was given to a journalist with the Dallas Morning News and he wrote an article that appeared in Oct. '63. I believe I have estimated that about 500 to 1000 GTOs were likely produced in Sept. '63 in advance of the first day '64s could be retailed. How many were actually on Dealer lots on Oct. 3rd, I have no clue.

14. I don't know how many cars PMD Sales Manager Frank Bridge thought could be sold. I believe it is Wangers who has claimed Bridge did not think there was a market for the car. Presumably he would have argued against producing any. On this count, Wangers gets credit for being tuned into the emerging youth market and his crystal ball proved prophetic. If they had only sold 500 with the GTO option in '64, Frank Bridge could have said, "I told you so."

17. Perhaps it would have been Bunkie Knudsen? He had been promoted from PMD to Chevy GM.

19. thru 23. I have commented in other threads here about what I know of and my opinions about the Car & Driver test cars. No need to add to that here.

[Keith Seymore]

That's more like it, John! (lol)

From what I can tell, we still need a definitive answer for #17 (I thought "Ferrari" was a good answer - lol). My initial response would also be Frank Bridge - since he made it very clear he didn't want the car (he has been quoted as saying he thought it "would be a pain in the a$$").

However, I think the answer you are looking for is "...the other GM divisions", specifically Chevrolet, Olds and Buick, who felt like they had been outsmarted by the introduction of the GTO.

Lastly, for #24 I thought maybe you Tom were referring to this magazine, but since it was published in 1984 I see that the dates don't line up with your hint:

[Old Man Taylor]

Originally Posted by John V.

More of my opinions:

3. I believe Wangers contends he and DeLorean came up with the original idea as the '64 Model Year approached (August '63?). IMO, the idea was germinating well before that, perhaps in the late winter of '63. The Pontiac 326 V8 had already been fitted into the '63 Tempest chassis as an option. The 421SD Tempests had actually been produced. One had to be brain dead not to recognize the 389 could be readily adapted to the planned '64 A body Model which would have been all but ready for production by late winter '63. If there was any "trick" to it, it would have been how to gain Corp. approval for it. I think the naming was pure DeLorean. Whether Wangers would have had any understanding that an option package needed no Corp. blessing, I do not know. I'm guessing the DeLorean and the Marketing people had knowledge of that. And as they say, the rest is history.

My contention was not that Jim Wangers had anything to do with identifying the interchangeability of the 326 and the 389, but that he did have to do with the idea that the '64 Tempest needed something to set it apart. He had discussed this with John DeLorean. It was during one of John's "regular reviews" with Engineering that Bill Collins made the comment that "it would only take about 20 minutes to swap in the 389 for the 326".

[John V.]

IMO,

19. I'm sure the March '64 issue of Car & Driver is the answer sought. However, "Uncle" Tom McCahill performed one of his famed Test Reports for a '64 GTO convertible which appeared in the January '64 issue of Mechanix Illustrated (on the newsstands in late fall '63). No way to know how much impact this Test Report had on GTO sales, but his Test Reports were widely read.

16. This is kinda an odd question. It presupposes that there WASN'T much initial advertising. Until what point in time? We know that at the outset, GTOs were built as "Zone Announcement" cars, the presumed purpose was to get them in the hands of the automotive press (such as the very early article that appeared in the Dallas paper). So at least one marketing ploy was to try and generate positive media publicity. If there was no advertising, I'll guess that the advertising budget was limited but perhaps there was a conscious choice to have the GTO option fly under the radar so as not to draw GM Corp. attention. That would kinda beg a follow-up question under no. 17. Assuming Knudsen was first to complain within GM, when did he become aware of the GTO and how did he become aware of it? Either he learned of it prior to Oct. 3rd because it really wasn't the big secret that GTO mythology has led us to believe, or else he learned of it after Oct. 3rd because of the publicity Pontiac was generating for it. If the former case, once the cat was out of the bag, there would have been no reason to avoid advertising it unless the Corp. quashed advertising fearing Insurance industry and Fed backlash to a blatant example of Corp. irresponsibility. If the latter case, the publicity "exposed" the GTO anyway, so there would not seem to be any reason to avoid advertising it just to "keep it a secret". Maybe the reason was that PMD hoped it would be a sales success but didn't want to spend a limited advertising budget on the GTO, fearing that if it fell flat, they wouldn't want to explain why they wasted so much money on a product that hadn't gotten GM Corp. approval.

11. I have to wonder if slipping the GTO option past the Engineering Policy Group was a lesson that PMD learned when they introduced the Lemans trim option for the Tempest, circa 1962? If PMD realized they didn't need Corp. approval for the Lemans trim option back then, doing the same with the GTO option (with the 389 made part of the package) would have been an already practiced gambit. Not something that they suddenly dreamed up.

24. I do not know the answer. I thought perhaps "GTO Enthusiast" but did not find it in any pre-'93 issue (it had become "Pontiac Enthusiast" about that time). Perhaps HPP, I have the '92 issues, again, did not jump out at me. GTOAA "The Legend" perhaps? Too tedious to check. What other mags catered to the GTO in '92?

[Big Injun]

Originally Posted by John V.

More of my opinions:
3. I believe Wangers contends he and DeLorean came up with the original idea as the '64 Model Year approached (August '63?). IMO, the idea was germinating well before that, perhaps in the late winter of '63. The Pontiac 326 V8 had already been fitted into the '63 Tempest chassis as an option. The 421SD Tempests had actually been produced. One had to be brain dead not to recognize the 389 could be readily adapted to the planned '64 A body Model which would have been all but ready for production by late winter '63. If there was any "trick" to it, it would have been how to gain Corp. approval for it. I think the naming was pure DeLorean. Whether Wangers would have had any understanding that an option package needed no Corp. blessing, I do not know. I'm guessing the DeLorean and the Marketing people had knowledge of that. And as they say, the rest is history.

Firstly, Wangers never contends that he and Delorean came up with the original ideal. The original idea was hatched by Russ Gee and Bill Collins. Once the car was created, Delorean then told Wangers he had to find a way to sell this car that did not fit the GM mandate for cubic inches to body weight.

These are some great questions put up by Tom. They are all answered in Jim Wangers best selling book...Glory Days

You can purchase an autographed copy and read more about Pontiac's glory days from a man who was there living and breathing it. Click over to the Merchandise page of www.geetotiger.com and pick up your copy today...just in time for the Holidays.

PS: We are offering FREE shipping within the U.S. on all orders over $100.

[Old Man Taylor]

Ditto what Dave said. Glory Days is the most interesting car book that I have ever read.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Old Man Taylor

Ditto what Dave said. Glory Days is the most interesting car book that I have ever read.

I agree Jim, while we were packing up on Sunday getting ready to leave Norwalk my wife purchased it for me. I think I read the whole book in about 3 days and really gives you a perspective of what went on in all of the automotive industry, not just at Pontiac. Lots of information in there the average enthusiast would never know unless Jim Wangers had put it all down in black and white for us to read. Well worth the money in my opinion.

[Tom Vaught]

#4 Ed Cole was charged with getting Pontiac out of racing

#5 Jim Wangers In 1963, Jim wrote a long memo to Delorean stating that that "Pontiac needed a "Bomb shell" to promote the Lemans" as the Tempest/LeMans up to that point was a real POS. (My Words on the POS.) Lots of problems with the vehicles, vibration from (poor balance), Lack of power, weak transmission, etc.

#12 Originally PMD was going to ask every Pontiac Dealer (I was told by my Uncle that there were over ~5000 dealers so if each one ordered one 64 GTO ...... 5000 GTOs would be possible).

#14, Frank Bridge the Pontiac Sales Manager thought that Pontiac would sell less than 500 GTOs.

#24 The "magazine" was the March 1992 edition of THE LEGEND

#17, The first group who complained about the 389 Engine in the Leman body was the OLDSMOBILE GUYS. Davis tried to have a road test with a Ferrari vs a GTO but the Ferrari Distribution Manager for North America would not allow the test as he said it was a "No Win" situation and Ferrari did not provide the vehicle. They did not complain, they simply did not play ball. The Olds guys cried because they only had a 330 engine in the Cutlass/F-85 1964 and the Chebby guys did too because of the 327 engine in the Chevelle. Olds found out about the GTO first.

Ah! NUMBER 21, THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE TOPIC REALLY.

OMT posted: (I am sure based on many stories heard from Wangers)

"A blue Sports Coupe (Nocturne Blue) and a red Sports Coupe.
Blue - 389 tri-power, 3.55 gear, M-20
Red car - 421 with Bobcat treatment, tri-power, 3.90 gear, M-21
The red car spun a bearing when running on a road course. It was not set up to assure adequate oiling on a road course."

IN 1992, THIS IS WHAT WANGERS REPORTED IN 1992:

a) There was no Ferrari present during the testing. PMD (Wangers)/ Davis (C?D) had road tests of the Ferrari. Wangers/ Davis "hand timed" timed the performance of the Blue and Red cars and did a "reconstructive test surgery" of how the testing "would have gone" IF there had been side to side testing. Davis always claimed to be the duped "Fool" in the testing, LOL!

b) Wangers said in 1992 that they "knocked a rod bearing out of the BLUE CAR" "We did not have good baffling in the oil pan and the #4 rod bearing went out" (This would fit with the Blue Car being used for the road tests with the 3.55 gears and the Red Car using 3.90 gears for the acceleration runs.

c) Wangers says the Red Car towed the Blue Car back to Detroit. Not the other way around.

d) Wangers said that the "Blue Car" was a "Pilot Line Car" It was built with regular assembly line parts on the Pilot Line EXCEPT for the engine. He says that the Blue car had a "Blue Printed" (NHRA Legal) 389 engine installed in the car. It had tri-power, wide ratio trans/3.55

e) Wangers says that the Red Car WAS THE SAME except for a close ratio trans/3.90 wangers says that it was an "early production car" that he later bought and had a 421 engine put in it. He says the 421 was installed for a ROYAL Pontiac Ad as Royal was promoting Engine swaps at the time. He kept the car until 1965 and sold the car to Bill Sherman.

So in the Book I assume that Wangers Now says there were one or more 421 Engines installed in the cars?

John in the same article there is a photo of the "cat" advertising courtesy of Pontiac Historical Services. A leopard is laying on the collapsed convertible top cover (being held by a trainer) while a photographer is taking a "High Tech" photo of a 1964 LeMans (the "Flamme") using a camera gantry.

The car is the 1964 LeMans "Flamme" as it has the 1964 "Car Show" Plate on the rear bumper, The chrome "Spinner" hub caps, A "swirl turned" dash applique, a Wood Wheel, The LeMans trim behind the door and the LeMans plate on the rear quarter. The car has white wall tires and no outside mirrors. The hood is not visible.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

You can comment in articles and write a book but Jim Wangers is too much of a "Street Racer" to ever really tell you the whole truth. It is just a deal of "What spin did he give you this week" JMO

Tom Vaught

ps Most excellent "Cover Stories" in the Intelligence game are based on partial truths.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

John in the same article there is a photo of the "cat" advertising courtesy of Pontiac Historical Services. A leopard is laying on the collapsed convertible top cover (being held by a trainer) while a photographer is taking a "High Tech" photo of a 1964 LeMans (the "Flamme") using a camera gantry.

The car is the 1964 LeMans "Flamme" as it has the 1964 "Car Show" Plate on the rear bumper, The chrome "Spinner" hub caps, A "swirl turned" dash applique, a Wood Wheel, The LeMans trim behind the door and the LeMans plate on the rear quarter. The car has white wall tires and no outside mirrors. The hood is not visible.

Tom Vaught

Interesting post, Tom. JohnV has mentioned there seemed to be some confusion in the past about which car broke and who towed who home, etc, and I wonder if it stems from this Legend article. I'm not going to comment further (only because I don't have time currently) but I believe what OMT posted to be true, based on what we now know (assuming Mr Wangers is "coming clean" this time! LOL).

Lastly - these photos you allude to - any way to scan those and post them? I can if you are not able and it might be an opportune time for me to give you your showcar book back.

Thanks -

K

[Tom Vaught]

I can swap you the Legend mag for the showcar book at your convenience. I am off work for the Holidays after next Tuesday.

Maybe meet on the east side off Van Dyke somewhere close to the Tech center?

Tom Vaught

[John V.]

Tom, not to be critical of Wangers, but his credibility suffers because the stories are ever changing. In part to give him his due but in part to explain why I question a lot of what has been attributed to him, he has always seemed to shoot from the hip of his actual experiences that occurred decades before. It is impossible for anyone to have perfect recall of long ago events. And it is common to mix up one event and time with some other event and time. Younger guys may not have yet experienced that. But most of us older guys have surely confused two sorta related events.

Rereading that interview article in the March '92 Legend, I spot a number of inconsistencies. Makes for a fun read, but if you examine the responses in relation to known facts, certain things don't add up.

We also have to be very careful not to criticize Wangers for mistakes that might be the fault of the journalist. Ask anybody that has ever been quoted in a news article if they think the reporter got it exactly right. I doubt it.

Tom, look again at the two pix you referenced that were provided by PHS for the story.

The first is definitely the "Flamme", but likely the late rendition after the rework. Would have the rectangular headlights and such. Not real obvious in the pic, but the headlight surround was more pronounced than the production issue and I am pretty certain that is what is seen on this one.

Has the bullet mirrors, the GTO front fender badge, and the "GTO" nameplate on the rear quarter, just as it was exhibited in April in New York and presumably subsequently at the NY World's Fair. Not "the original concept car" as suggested by the caption. Maybe one of you Detroit guys can try to peg the time of year the pic was taken from the foliage on the trees. Foliage looks a little too much for the pic to have been from early April just prior to it being shipped to NY. But our assumption is that the Flamme sent to NY was a rework of the Flamme shown in Chicago in Feb. Perhaps there were two different cars.

The car in the "cat" ad pic is not at all the same car. The rear tag "1964" is not what was on the Flamme in NY. That tag read "PONTIAC GTO". In any event, the ad shot car does not appear to have the rear mounted Power Antenna mast that was on the late rendition of the Flamme and believed to have been on the early rendition when it appeared in Detroit & Chicago in Lemans trim (especially since we've assumed they were the same car, just reworked a 2nd time).

I agree, the pic makes it appear like this Lemans might have the GTO type swirled dash insert, but I wonder if that is not just an illusion. Plus, I'm 95% sure that the steering wheel is NOT the wood wheel, just an ordinary deluxe wheel, standard in the Lemans trim.

I said earlier that I've commented about the C & D test cars before, didn't want to rehash it. But it is interesting to see what Wangers claimed for the Blue car according to the '92 interview. Read the C & D article as written by Davis. According to the article, if either car had the 3.90 gear, it was the Manual Steer Blue car. I remain convinced that Wangers did not know what trans was in either car. Many in the hobby believed for years that the 3.90 geared '64 GTOs were supposed to get the Close Ratio Trans. That was never true, although late in the year you could order it as a Special Equipment option. The Red car was built with Special Order 3.23 gears as specified by Wangers (per the Manifest for that car). This point is debatable, but I believe that Wangers intended for the Red car to be tested on the Road course and specified the 3.23 gears because it would have allowed a higher top end than the 3.55 gears that would have been installed in an early year Tri-Power GTO. I can think of no logical explanation for Wangers to have ordered the Red car with 3.23 gears if he intended to have 3.90 gears in it for the Daytona test. He could have simply special ordered the 3.90 gears. The article claims the trans was Close Ratio, but if you check the gear ratios listed in the C & D article, they are for a Borg Warner, not a Muncie. I have always believed that Wangers supplied that data for the article (how would Davis have known what the tranny gear ratios were?). And he got them wrong because he didn't understand that the gears in the code 9 Muncie installed when 3.90 gears were specified (IMO, the Blue car) were the same as in the code W Muncie installed with all other ratios (including the 3.23 in the Red car).

Wangers definitely later "admitted" that one or both cars had the 421 at Daytona. I believe that shows up in a number of places, my own recollection was that he first admitted it during a Ferrari vs. GTO "test" conducted by "Pontiac Enthusiast" in the late '90s. At the time of the "admission", I was of the opinion that Wangers simply didn't know. But that he must have felt foolish in light of the photo evidence presented by others (during the many years that Wangers kept denying it) that discerned the likelihood of the 421, so Wangers finally "owned" up to it. Frankly, I still believe he may not have been "in the loop" on the engine swap, especially if it was the Blue car that had the 421. But that is just my opinion. It was the Blue car that Davis gushed about, the one C & D staffers spent about 10 days with in NY, and then the Davis family drove down to Daytona. I have often wondered if Davis would have been so blown away by the Blue GTO had it been "just" a 389.

It is also the Blue car that shows up in most of the C & D article pix. No mention is made of either car breaking down in the article. And perhaps Wangers had misremembered the story during the interview, or maybe Gary Butcher got it backwards when writing the article. Since the Blue car seems to have been the most photgraphed at Daytona, seems logical to me that the Red car got sidelined.

The Red car was known to have PS. Davis wrote of his preference for the quicker PS in the article vs. the Manual Steer that we can surmise was in the Blue car he spent so much time in. Since I believe there is debate about what gears were in which car while at Daytona, on the sole basis of the Red car having PS, I contend it was more likely the Red car that ran the road course. And it seems logical to me that Wangers would have special ordered the 3.23 gears for use on the road course.

All of this is just MY opinion. Wangers WAS there, can't ever take that away from him. I just wish that the stories would be more airtight.

The current owner of the Red car has related what he has been told by Wangers, about the engine, trans, and gear swaps. Could have happened that way. I certainly wasn't there.

Tom, take a look at the pic of the Tempest Custom convert on the back cover of that Legend issue, the one with the Smothers Brothers in the foreground. Same shiny spinners, whitewalls, and same "1964" plate on the front this time. Looks to me that was just a plate used in publicity/advertising shots, regardless of the model.

[Old Man Taylor]

I have had the opportunity to be on very long drives with Jim Wangers, with never a dull moment or lapse in conversation. His memory is amazing, and his stories are always consistent. Sometimes he will intentionally let confusion reign as he likes the mystique this creates. That's part of being a Marketing man.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[Tom Vaught]

John, The car in the second picture of the article is obviously the last version of the Flamme. No argument there.

The third Pic "Cat" pic I believe does have a swirl dash as the black dash on a Lemans obviously would not reflect light on the left side of the steering wheel if it were black.

A further look (expanded view) at the steering wheel in the "Cat" pic
make me agree on the standard wheel.

Keith has my "Show" pics book with the Flamme pics so I could not tell about the plate but agree that the 64 Plate is the same as on back of mag.

My point is AGAIN, Wangers is a "spinner of tales" for the benefit of the listener. He may not have had in depth knowledge of how the cars were built as Bill Collins and the Engineers & Technicians probably did all of the work on the cars and the Royal Guys did the work on his street racer projects. I do not think that He or Dave Davis were into the actual details at that time.

I have a couple of photos of Royal Guys working on an early Tri-Power GTO where the pyramid is very clearly shown on the block. The car is a 64 or 65 based on the radiator inlet position, but hard to be sure if 64 or 65 as the heater hose at the rear is not visible or connected.

OMT says that Jim W's stories are always consistant. If Jim W. ordered the two cars then Jim W. of all people should have known what he ordered (with DeLorean's authorization).

Still a lot of fun trying to figure out all of the spins in the stories.

Tom Vaught

ps I knew the stuff in the legend did not jive with other stuff I have on the cars.

[Old Man Taylor]

I will be seeing Jim sometime in the next week. I will try to get us latest input on the two cars. However, he usually refers every one to his book "Glory Days" with the statement that "it's all in the book".

[John V.]

Tom, I agree that it is fun to untangle the spin.

Jim, I'm not looking to disparage Wangers. The man WAS there and he knew what he knew. But I agree with Tom. I don't know that Wangers spins the tale on purpose. He is surely entertaining and engaging. But there have been a few holes in his stories over the years. For guys like me, I like to get the facts precisely straight, but that isn't always (if ever) possible. When Wangers says something that flies in the face of the evidence, I like to dig deeper to see what might be the truth. I could read his take on the '64 GTO in his book. But it is still HIS story, at least his most current version of it. And his version of events may not be entirely accurate, either because time has confused the events or because some aspects of the story did not involve him. So I'm always interested in discovering what else can be learned.

I'd really like to speak to David E. Davis, Jr. about the Daytona test and discovrer what he might remember.

In the January '75 Car & Driver, Davis wrote a retrospective piece on the '64 GTO and that March '64 article. In it, he includes 4 sample letters from the June '64 C & D responding to the article. An excerpt, "I've finally been exposed to the most asinine article to ever appear in any sports car magazine, bar none!"

Rereading THAT article, I now discover that I have been wrong in saying that it was Davis and his family that drove the GTO down from NY. My bad.

In the retrospective article, Davis writes that "John Jerome drove his family down from New York in the test car and Wangers drove a back-up GTO down from Detroit."

John Jerome was the Managing Editor at the time. Davis was Editor & Publisher.

But wait, there's more!

"It was a surreal trip. Out at the track, we drove one of the cars over Jerome's camera bag (including camera), lunched the engine in the back-up car and busted the rear window out of our rented Ford convertible. We sailed around Daytona like crazy people, had the time of our lives and shared a growing gut feeling that we were really on to something."

Davis goes on to write, "I wrote most of the feature inside with John Jerome's help...".

Well, there you have it. If Davis was correct in the '75 article, it was the back-up car that had the wounded engine.

Davis also credited Wangers with coming up with the idea of comparing the Pontiac to a Ferrari. He states that C & D had been trying to get a "GTO to test for weeks, but the Pontiac PR people kept stalling, feigning ignorance of the car's existence-but then, maybe they weren't feigning. Wangers worked for Pontiac's advertising agency and was far and away the most involved and aggressive press agent in all of Detroit. He got us the car."

Interesting that Wangers claimed in '92 that Ferrari stonewalled C & D, kept Davis from obtaining a Ferrari GTO to do the comparo with. In '75, Davis says that the Ferraris were all in pieces or being saved for the next racing season, none to be had. In '64, he wrote that they actually drove two Ferrari GTOs but were never able to get the cars and the weather to cooperate at the same time, so never got them on the track together. He also wrote that they considered other venues, but since it was "midwinter and raining buckets", they went to Daytona. Depending on what time frame one considers "midwinter", could it be that Davis had forgotten when the test was conducted?

Also interesting that Wangers stated in '92 that they met at Daytona the day after Christmas. I had assumed it may have coincided with the Thanksgiving holiday (the week after JFK was assassinated). But Christmas would have made some sense. Weather history shows that the weather was quite nice in Daytona the week of Christmas, '63. No rain, temps ranging to the mid 60s on the 26th, even warmer on the 27th, no rain.

Wangers went on to generate a lot of Woodward Ave. publicity with the Red car. But I remain smitten with the Blue car, as that was the car that had Jerome, Davis, and the rest of the C & D staff (except for the Technical Editor, Jan Norbye according to Davis) gushing about the '64 GTO.

Did the Red car go to Daytona with a 421? If it did, it may have been of little consequence, since that engine went lame.

Did the Blue car get sent to C & D with a 421? Maybe the C & D staff would have been blown away by a 389 GTO with 3.90 gears (the '64 article claims the Blue car had 3.90 gears pretty matter of factly) anyway. Both cars were claimed in the '64 article to have gotten the Royal Bobcat treatment.

Maybe neither car had a 421 at Daytona. Maybe the Red car got the 421 after it came back from Daytona, the engine had been wounded so it needed work anyway.

I still think, if either car had a 421, it was the Blue car. That would account for why the C & D staff was so thoroughly blown away. And if a GTO produced times anything close to what C & D claimed for it, seems to me it could not have been the 389 powering it. There are those that claim the Red car was used for the acceleration testing. I'm not convinced.

Would Wangers have been aware if Royal swapped one or both engines? Would he remember which car (if only one)? I have no idea.

Maybe it was Butcher and not Wangers that messed up the facts in the '92 Interview. Butcher mentions in the '92 article that he asked Jim many of the same questions that Paul Zazarine had asked in an interview with Wangers that appeared in the October '83 issue of "The Legend". Anybody have that issue and care to see how the answers compared?

Jim, interesting comment about Wangers and the "mystique". I call it the GTO Mythology. No question in my mind that the mythology has caused us to perceive the GTO as having been a sensationally special car beyond what the reality actually was. In that respect, Wangers approach makes perfect sense.

Tom, you mention the idea that Wangers "ordered the two cars". I seem to recall a story attributed to Wangers that DeLorean whipped out two Order blanks and told Wangers to order them the way he wanted. I can't recall if this supposedly had to do with the two cars that wound up in Daytona. If so, that would seem to disprove the idea that the Blue car was a "pilot line" build. The Red car was final assembled in early Nov. according to the Manifest. I would believe the Blue car was likely built about the same time.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to know if Wangers did order them both according to the story I think he has told about them and would be great if PHS would dig up the Manifest for the Blue car and publish it.

[Tom Vaught]

Referring to a single source of info probably has reduced the number of "statement conflicts" a great deal since Glory Days has come out.

Tom Vaught

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The third Pic "Cat" pic I believe does have a swirl dash as the black dash on a Lemans obviously would not reflect light on the left side of the steering wheel if it were black.

A further look (expanded view) at the steering wheel in the "Cat" pic
make me agree on the standard wheel.

I had an opportunity to meet with Tom and grab the "Legend" magazine referenced earlier.

Here is the photo to which Tom is referring:



And here it is, in the context of the original article:

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith, I wouldn't stand a chance. I'd just be guessing for most of them. Here's what I think for no. 1 & 2.

1. I do not know when the option was made "official" as in "approved for production". I'm not even sure I understand the question. The first public announcement that I'm familiar with came from PMD's PR Dept. in a Press Release dated Oct. 1, 1963 (Tuesday), effectively to coincide with the Oct. 3, 1963 release date when the Dealers were first able to offer the '64 models for sale. The '64s (including GTOs) had begun regular production on Sept. 3, 1963 and had been in the pipeline and hitting Dealer lots ever since that date. The Press Release was specifically intended to generate publicity, the option had been approved and actual builds produced long before the Press Release was distributed. Planning for the GTO option was well in advance of the Press Release of course, so the option was green lighted even earlier. I believe some PMD documents have been published in the past that shed some light on the development of the GTO option and its progress thru the summer of '63 but I'd have to dig deep to find that stuff.

2. I assume the answer to this question would be E.M. "Pete" Estes. Quotes attributed to Estes were included in the aforementioned Press Release. Estes held the Title of PMD General Manager, and as such, was also a Vice President of General Motors Corp. I do not know if previous memos were sent to Dealers about the GTO and if so, whose signature they went out under. It has always been my opinion that GTOs were on Dealer lots in time for the Oct 3rd "opening day". It is hard for me to imagine that a Press Release would have been made about the car without having actual GTOs on the lots ready for purchase.

Attached is a scan of the press release: