[cgeise]

John sleeps with his grinder in hand

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

Here we go racing flow benches again...

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance / Mondello Tech Center
708-250-7420

Are you saying the guys working on these dont know what there doing - aand are Not getting there the right way ???????

[Milepost]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Are you saying the guys working on these dont know what there doing - aand are Not getting there the right way ???????

Consider this Curt.... Most head porters will agree to this statement Chad Speier has on his Home Page....The Flowbench Conspiracy:


"I have had the opportunity to learn from some of the best porters in the industry. Just like grinders, calipers, and even a Sharpie, are tools of our trade, so is a flowbench. In some circles you will find debate that a flowbench isn’t a viable option for developing a port and making power. While I honestly believe it is not the end all, if you know what your looking at and how to apply the data your seeing, it’s a start and good things will happen!

I have also heard the debate that some develop ports without the aid of a flowbench. While this might be true, I wonder what kind of R&D and track expense was encountered in that endeavor? I wonder how many customers are the R&D and don't know it?

I feel with proper use of a pitot tube, and the proper use of some simple math, you can develop a port that will make power and set records. I believe that a flowbench is the lifeblood for a pitot tube. Other devices are of great help. Flow balls, string, even a car antenna! I’m not sure how one can visually look at a area and think that the area is too fast, we need to slow it down. I feel that every means available should be considered in development. If you have flowbench data vs. track results, you can build a data base that will prove successful each and every time.

I also hear that CFM isn’t critical. Well my friends, that’s simply not true! If you have a port that has 2.50 inches of minimum area, and it should move 325 CFM, but only moves 310 CFM, that is a problem! I want the port to flow the proper amount of air for the area available. When you have the proper amount of area needed for your engine combination, each and every time you move more air, it WILL make more power. Now I’m a big believer that the velocity profile vs. the port volume vs. the air moved, is key to a efficient port that will perform as it should. CFM isn’t the first thing to use in choosing a cylinder head, and it’s not tops on the list, but it is critical. WHEN IT COMES TO CYLINDER HEADS, PORT SHAPE, LOCALIZED VELOCITY, AVERAGE VELOCITY AND THEN CFM ARE IN THE ORDER OF IMPORTANCE IN MY DEVELOPMENT.

Now the flowbench itself. Oh boy have I had a battle with this! All I can say is if you own a set of plates and your bench shows it to be off, FIX IT! The equipment is only as good as the operator, and the knowledge of that person. We use a SF600 equipped with a PT Black Box II and Port Flow Analyzer software. Also in the shop is a very powerful, custom all electronic, PTS orifice bench that is used in development to pull higher depressions on the port for further advancements in port shape."

[cgeise]

I agree completly

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Are you saying the guys working on these dont know what there doing - aand are Not getting there the right way ???????

Not at all, just funny how things can get spun. I'm pretty sure this head will make some strong power. Will it be the best head? Will it be better then other heads that are available. Only time will tell. The only thing we do know for sure is it will be one of the most expensive Pontiac cylinder heads available.

I commend the few that are stepping up to develop this head.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance / Mondello Tech Center
708-250-7420

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by cgeise

I agree completly

except you think oval ports are superior in all circumstances... LOL

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

Not at all, just funny how things can get spun. I'm pretty sure this head will make some strong power. Will it be the best head? Will it be better then other heads that are available. Only time will tell. The only thing we do know for sure is it will be one of the most expensive Pontiac cylinder heads available.

I commend the few that are stepping up to develop this head.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance / Mondello Tech Center
708-250-7420

I dont think any one will claim it to be the best head. As far as race heads go, IMO, i think its just another almost for Pontiacs. But i think its a real nice almost. I expect this head to make pretty good HP #s. My HP goal is set and only time will tell.
But you are right the cost, castings are not cheep, will have to be cnc cut, seat registers cut and seats and guides installed. All this adds up. But if they can make the power right out of the gate i think it will be worth it to people. But at the same time i dont think its really any more than a lot of the alternative castings for those that are going after higher HP levels.

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

except you think oval ports are superior in all circumstances... LOL

I still stand by the statement - a smaller oval port - as compared to a square port -- wil flow better - read more efficient ,than a square port - there is less velosity gradient in the oval than the square port - so - IF DONE CORRECTLY - a smaller oval will perform the same as its larger square brother.

[Milepost]

Originally Posted by cgeise

I still stand by the statement - a smaller oval port - as compared to a square port -- wil flow better - read more efficient ,than a square port - there is less velosity gradient in the oval than the square port - so - IF DONE CORRECTLY - a smaller oval will perform the same as its larger square brother.

I agree. An oval port of the same CSA will outflow a rectangular port. That is not to say a square port can't be made to flow well. Given the valve geometry, architecture and size of the engine ( Big Bore Strokers) you sometimes have no other choice but to make the ports square to get the needed CSA for large or high RPM race engine. BBC guys know this all to well trying to feed a 632 cu in with 24 deg heads.

[Milepost]

Originally Posted by john marcella

I dont think any one will claim it to be the best head. As far as race heads go, IMO, i think its just another almost for Pontiacs. But i think its a real nice almost. I expect this head to make pretty good HP #s. My HP goal is set and only time will tell.
But you are right the cost, castings are not cheep, will have to be cnc cut, seat registers cut and seats and guides installed. All this adds up. But if they can make the power right out of the gate i think it will be worth it to people. But at the same time i dont think its really any more than a lot of the alternative castings for those that are going after higher HP levels.

IMO where the 11 deg Pro-ports will shine is in efficiency. I really don't think they will make any more PEAK power than a Tiger head but they very well could make more AVERAGE power and torque with over a wider range with a slightly smaller port and shorter valve combo. As Calvin said, they will be pricey but for some applications they might the best choice. Time will tell....

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by twinturrbo406

... our ProPort 12.6 head goes (380 @ .550 lift) and (441 @ .700 lift) ...

Nice numbers. Are you guys working on getting them CNC? It would be cool to see what you guys to do with them on an engine.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by john marcella

But at the same time i dont think its really any more than a lot of the alternative castings for those that are going after higher HP levels.

x2!
Good luck with your 11 degree Pro Ports. Looking forward to your results.

[7T2]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Nice numbers. Are you guys working on getting them CNC? It would be cool to see what you guys to do with them on an engine.

Originally Posted by slowbird

All I will say right now is it far exceeds any flow numbers that have been posted so far in this thread.

hmmmm- if the second quote is true, then you should be marketing your numbers. did you sign an NDA with your porter?

[Ron H]

Sorry if this is off base.

But I am curious. Until today, after the explosion and prior to all that, all part development of Pontiacs, but particularily heads; Which one has sold, been worked, desired, ran, drug through the mud, and performed to the max potential of the piece that we Pontiac Enthusiasts have enjoyed?

RA 2
RA1V
RAV
6x
SD
E Heads
KRE D Ports
Tigers
CV-1's
Wenzlers
E Pro Ports

And I mean exactly this. How many of the possible heads to be ran on a Pontiac block have been pushed to the limit of their potential for making power? Takin to the point of "This Port Shape makes the most of this casting and it's unchangeable features and obstacles?

And I go one further for the f*nk of it.

Have a matched short block, cam, intake, carb, headers, stall, gears, tires and chassis all are there to the utmost? How many of "The Whole Picture" have been done?

I'd say, none? As long as the envelope is being pushed and someone is widdling on a shape, turning a wrench or thinking about it, the greatest ever port, part, piece, degree has yet to be developed. Nothing has truly been optimized to a maximum limit. Maybe I'm an optomist. But as long as people are trying to figure it out, it will be figured out. No matter what it is. There is always more to bring to the table.

It may be a small market. It is what it is.

We all want to make the best of what we are doing. If not, we wouldn't be doing it.

There is alot of passionate people here who believe in what they do. What is being worked on, no matter what it is, should be applauded, not stepped on, over, around or through.

Thanks to all who try to advance and push the envelope, no matter what it is. If it weren't for them, there wouldn't be mail to be delivered.

It really is time to quit swinging dinks and regurgitating the ego trips of months before and give the banter a rest.

Sorry for the rant. I digress.

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by Milepost

IMO where the 11 deg Pro-ports will shine is in efficiency. I really don't think they will make any more PEAK power than a Tiger head but they very well could make more AVERAGE power and torque with over a wider range with a slightly smaller port and shorter valve combo. As Calvin said, they will be pricey but for some applications they might the best choice. Time will tell....

I actually think i could make more power with the Tigers, but i would want to move some things around and do a fair amount of welding on them. I am also not familiar with the material and heat treat like i am with the Edelbrocks. Plus i wanted to be able to make a cnc program for what ever i did to try and maybe recoup some $ on the project, and what i was going to do to the tigers would cost so much for someone else that no one would be interested. The PP is a real nice no fuss deal. JMO

[Robert C.]

John,

We use the best materials in our heads as well as our Aluminum Blocks. Both are Heat Treaded to T6 temper.

Gabby L. Just did a set of Tgers for a New York Customer. The customer called me with the Dyno information stated he was very please to see 1089 H.P. with no vacuum on a single carb. motor naturaly asperated.

Nothing that I know of was welded or moved around in the head. It was not a all out motor but a bracket motor build.

I hope someone will post the Dyno Sheet soon.

[cfmcnc]

I agree John about the extensive work and relocation...but that 's just it , the crowd you'd be targeting for a head like that could justify it's price tag being a little hefty...because that's what it takes. Can the Eddy go where the Tiger can go in a high-end application without welding ? in a no-fuss CNC package ? I'm talking sizes to suit an application over 500 c.i. and 2.0 per inch. We do that without welding or relocation so far on the Tiger...the pro-port sounds like a real player as well . Not for the faint of heart cost wise though...expensive head to port and prep...even with CNC packages .

I've never had a call for a set of heads like we're discussing for a Pontiac , not the cookie-cutter CNC stuff... but a maximum effort head...but I have ports and locations...should the need arise . It will be interesting to see how some of this high-end stuff unfolds over the next few months. John

[slowbird]

Just my opinion but I bet the Pro Ports and Tiger cost about the same in the end. The high end Tigers that I know of have had things moved around which adds cost. The Pro Ports don't really need things moved but require more porting time which adds cost. All parts and pieces cost roughly the same so that's a wash. Which one will make the most power, I really don't know. But in my opinion the 2 will be pretty close.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Robert C.

John,

We use the best materials in our heads as well as our Aluminum Blocks. Both are Heat Treaded to T6 temper.

Gabby L. Just did a set of Tgers for a New York Customer. The customer called me with the Dyno information stated he was very please to see 1089 H.P. with no vacuum on a single carb. motor naturaly asperated.

Nothing that I know of was welded or moved around in the head. It was not a all out motor but a bracket motor build.

I hope someone will post the Dyno Sheet soon.

Nice numbers!! Any other details, engine size?

[cfmcnc]

Our Shelf Tiger ,no moving ,welding or relocating is at 465cfm,our Tiger Custom with moving ,welding relocating ,reheatreating is at 490 cfm,136cfm per msca,would need funding to pursue the Pro-Port.Bill C.