[Bnick166]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

But can the average guy get the same results for the same money? Probably not.
Tom Vaught

Tom,
What AVERAGE guy would throw absurd amounts of money at a car that will never appreciate fast enough to recap at least a small portion of his money back. Certainley not the avarage guy. You are not (and apparently nobody else) getting the point I'm trying to make. John and Mike have both stated that the head can make serious power. That is all of the confirmation that I need. I never mentioned anything about the cost per results. It has been stated that to build a competive race engine...all costs will remain pretty much equal (give or take). Soooo, If somebody were to take a set of CV-1's, an EFI intake and a couple of handfulls of money to say... John or Gabby...it is your contention that neither of them could make a package that would WOW Most Pontiac guys?

Interesting.

John and Mike have BOTH stated that they could do it and I believe them.

It'll take time and money......the length of time will depend on how long it takes somebody to pony up their money.
The new E-head has been developed into just such a head seamingly overnight....by John. Yet I haven't seen anyone else post on their trials and tribulations on that head. Nope....ya ain't gonna hear those stories from the average guy. you'll only hear such stories from dedicated people with a lot of disposable income or the ability to do much of the work themselves OR the ability to horsetrade said services to their advantage.

[GREATGTO]

Yeah those pro ports are just flying off edelbrocks shelves ever since John worked his set.

How many other guys are running pro ports?

Sounds like a great idea to have John take cv1's, move everything around only to sell the same amount as his pro ports, brilliant. Did you guys know Jim is in business to actually make money? Not appease 1% if that of the pontiac community.

How much would these magic man cv1's cost? Here is an idea, why don't you guys take up a collection and have John design you a canted valve head and see if you can get a return on your investment?

[mjm421]

Originally Posted by GREATGTO

Yeah those pro ports are just flying off edelbrocks shelves ever since John worked his set.

How many other guys are running pro ports?

Sounds like a great idea to have John take cv1's, move everything around only to sell the same amount as his pro ports, brilliant. Did you guys know Jim is in business to actually make money? Not appease 1% if that of the pontiac community.

How much would these magic man cv1's cost? Here is an idea, why don't you guys take up a collection and have John design you a canted valve head and see if you can get a return on your investment?

How many "other" people are running 8.30's so soon in their program n/a @3000lbs.?

[GREATGTO]

Originally Posted by mjm421

How many "other" people are running 8.30's so soon in their program n/a @3000lbs.?

The point and the question is how much will it cost and how many will sell?
no
doubt
John could do it. Like I said, how many pro ports have sold because of John efforts?
My quess would be probably zero because of cost and amount of work that it takes to get there.

[GREATGTO]

You know what my advice was to Jim when I first met him?I said you should have made a head for a ford or a chevy, not a pontiac, just because of how ''those people' are.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

So what YOUR tryin' to say is....if you have a lot of money....
I thought John said that wasn't really TRUE.

Money is only one side of this...it takes hard work, dedication, and at bare minimum enough smarts to understand how it "should" come together. As well as seeking out the right people to help you reach you goals.

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

Anyone that would turn down help from Gaby or John isn't looking at the bigger picture.

CAN I GET AN AMEN BROTHER HOLMBERG?!!

Originally Posted by GREATGTO

You know what my advice was to Jim when I first met him?I said you should have made a head for a ford or a chevy, not a pontiac, just because of how ''those people' are.

You are one of those people to...just sayin

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

Tom, What AVERAGE guy would throw absurd amounts of money at a car that will never appreciate fast enough to recap at least a small portion of his money back."

I guess I am not getting the point. When did building a fast engine EVER involve recouping your investment? (forget about the time/labor factor).

Originally Posted by Bnick166

John and Mike have both stated that the head can make serious power. That is all of the confirmation that I need.

Let me fix that quote for you. "John M, Gaby, and Mike L have ALL stated that they could have made serious power IF they had been allowed to change things in the Head and I believe them." John M DID change stuff on MJM421's heads and the car is a very nice street/track performer.

Originally Posted by Bnick166

It'll take time and money......the length of time will depend on how long it takes somebody to pony up their money. The new E-head has been developed into just such a head seamingly overnight....by John. Yet I haven't seen anyone else post on their trials and tribulations on that head. Nope....ya ain't gonna hear those stories from the average guy. you'll only hear such stories from dedicated people with a lot of disposable income or the ability to do much of the work themselves OR the ability to horsetrade said services to their advantage.

The cow is already out of the barn on that deal. Some People had a chance to use that capability (John M, Gaby, Mike L) and did not take the offer. It is what it is.

All of this banter does not answer the most basic question?

WHERE ARE THE 1000 HP+ ENGINES USING THESE PARTS?

Tom Vaught

ps I agree with Brian H, have the boys post up that 174 mph slip while you are at it.

[Tom Vaught]

All that being said, at one time I was very interested in the Heads in the topic.

Looked like some "Forward Thinking": Basic Ford Design externally, ability to have a short exhaust port for turbo header fabrication, everyone said that the castings were very nicely done, heads were obviously a "different" head so easy to spot a conversion from a typical RA-IV style head..........

Keefer was messing with the heads, MJM421 bought a set of raw castings, Gach said the designer of the heads could walk on water, other people looked at the heads (Gaby and John M).

So what happened?

Actually not breaking bones, What happened? What made Keefer walk away, Gach walk away, John M and Gaby walk away, etc. I was not a member of the Gach board during that time so honestly asking the question.

Tom Vaught

All I have ever said about the heads was my boss at Ford: Lee Morse, showed me how you could lose power on a head if the head was clocked wrong.

Tom Vaught

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

All that being said, at one time I was very interested in the Heads in the topic.

Looked like some "Forward Thinking": Basic Ford Design externally, ability to have a short exhaust port for turbo header fabrication, everyone said that the castings were very nicely done, heads were obviously a "different" head so easy to spot a conversion from a typical RA-IV style head..........

Keefer was messing with the heads, MJM421 bought a set of raw castings, Gach said the designer of the heads could walk on water, other people looked at the heads (Gaby and John M).

So what happened?

Actually not breaking bones, What happened? What made Keefer walk away, Gach walk away, John M and Gaby walk away, etc. I was not a member of the Gach board during that time so honestly asking the question.

Tom Vaught

All I have ever said about the heads was my boss at Ford: Lee Morse, showed me how you could lose power on a head if the head was clocked wrong.

Tom Vaught

Tom,
You are asking about technical reasons why Lou Gach did something?

If you go back and look at posts on PZ from years ago you will not know what went on? He edited and censored threads about the CV discussions. I called him on this and got band from PZ.

I do not know about the others and what happened there.

Stan

[GREATGTO]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

All that being said, at one time I was very interested in the Heads in the topic.

Looked like some "Forward Thinking": Basic Ford Design externally, ability to have a short exhaust port for turbo header fabrication, everyone said that the castings were very nicely done, heads were obviously a "different" head so easy to spot a conversion from a typical RA-IV style head..........

Keefer was messing with the heads, MJM421 bought a set of raw castings, Gach said the designer of the heads could walk on water, other people looked at the heads (Gaby and John M).

So what happened?

Actually not breaking bones, What happened? What made Keefer walk away, Gach walk away, John M and Gaby walk away, etc. I was not a member of the Gach board during that time so honestly asking the question.

Tom Vaught

All I have ever said about the heads was my boss at Ford: Lee Morse, showed me how you could lose power on a head if the head was clocked wrong.

Tom Vaught

Clocked wrong huh? Well just so you know Darin Morgan has evaluated Jims cv1 design and understands their purpose and reasoning for their layout , and according to him they have no design flaws for their intended purposes.

So whoever you know that says they are clocked wrong is no where near a Darin Morgan, not even in their wildest dreams. So if Darin says they are a good design thats all I need to know, but I didn't even need him to tell me what I already believed before he ever evaluated the heads.

[GREATGTO]

Here is an idea for you Tom, call Darin sometime yourself and ask him his professional opinion on the cv1's, then post what he tells you here. Or you can just keep listening to the morons whoever they are that tell you what you currently believe.

[GREATGTO]

Here is a link for you Tom if you dont want to call, hmm no mention of a clocking problem or any other problem.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...t=DARIN+MORGAN

[Bnick166]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I guess I am not getting the point. When did building a fast engine EVER involve recouping your investment? (forget about the time/labor factor). .

Tom...You stated earlier about "the average guy". The "average guy" would want a reasonable return for his money. "average guys" don't build and/or pay somebody to build a race engine.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Let me fix that quote for you. "John M, Gaby, and Mike L have ALL stated that they could have made serious power IF they had been allowed to change things in the Head and I believe them." John M DID change stuff on MJM421's heads and the car is a very nice street/track performer.

If you re-read the post....both Mike and John stated that they "could" do it......not past tense. Which goes to prove my point. If I were to give them a handful of my money...they "could" do it (presently)

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

WHERE ARE THE 1000 HP+ ENGINES USING THESE PARTS?.

Answer.....Nobody has done it yet.....but it CAN be done.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

ps I agree with Brian H, have the boys post up that 174 mph slip while you are at it.

Only boys I have are my testicles.......not sure what your eluding to there.

[john marcella]

Well since my name is getting lumped in here, I will go on the record and say..............I believe I can make well over 1000 hp with the CV head with only porting and maybe a little weld, no moving anything. But I would also say that I could do better if I moved things around. JMO

Do I think it is the best head for Pontiacs=NO
2nd best =NO / modified(my way) =YES !!!!!!!!!

Again -JMO

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

If someone can run 6s (Marty P) with a cast iron 62 Traditional Pontiac Head, I would hope that you could break into the 7s with a CV-1 Head with boost.

Tom Vaught

I have the means to run 6's the same as Marty did. The biggest difference is I'm doing almost everything by myself. I'll go out on a limb and assume he had help and expeirence on his side.

So after a little over 3 years of build time I hope to be in the 7's. I suspect I wont stop pushing to go faster. If a "good" engine can make 2000hp with these turbo's, that should be enough hp to get a light car in the 6's.

How much did Marty's car weight? If he went 6's with 1600hp I'm betting that was a pretty light car. 2600ish..?

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by GREATGTO

The point and the question is how much will it cost and how many will sell?
no
doubt
John could do it. Like I said, how many pro ports have sold because of John efforts?
My quess would be probably zero because of cost and amount of work that it takes to get there.

The offer I made Jim would not have cost him much at all (no money , just some parts) . In return I said I would give him back a complete model head with complete cad model as well, valve profile, and valve job profile. And he would have a part # for Jesel rocker set up.
However I told him that it would require some core box changes. Not for my heads, I know a welder. But it would have taken a intake core, ex core and a water jacket core change and a modification to the core under the valve cover.
All of this is not cheep.
And as MJM puts it, no one likes being told their baby is ugly.
I made the offer because I wanted to help and I wanted something good for myself that I was in control of the design. Because there are no designs for Pontiacs that I am happy with. I chose my Pro Ports only because I was "content" with the valve placement and it had more than enough material to work with, so it seamed like the least amount of work to get were I wanted to be.

[GTOGEORGE]

I hate to step on Tom's shoe here but I'm thinking Marty's car was a little heavy.......not nowhere as heavy as mine but around 2600-2800lbs.


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

The number I always heard was very close to 2900 pounds. No where near 2600 pounds. Like 2880.

Tom Vaught

[GTOGEORGE]

I did say up to 2800 I just wasn't sure but new it was heavy just not as heavy as mine.


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Good Memory George, that was a long time ago.

Tom Vaught

ps Make some money at Norwalk!!! You said you had 3 chances?