[65blackplate]

it is mostly because it's a 65

[geeteeohguy]

I concur. It's because it's a 'sixty-five.

[Greg Reid]

65 does have some bearing on it I'm sure. It's one third of the (my) holy trinity-
-'65 GTO (any good color),
-Tri-power
-4spd...
That's the price driving combo I think.
If it goes very much higher than it is now...say, over $10K....well, then that would be something to really wonder about.

[6t5gto]

IMO being a real black car has alot to do with the price. The fact that its a real tripower 4spd car is awesome, but not as uncommon as a black car. After collecting 30 GTO convertibles and not end up with 1 black car ,that tells me black is rare. I searched for 8-10 years for a black/white 65 tripower 4 spd #s matching car and was only able to find 2. The 1st one was not a good car and the 2nd one was being sought after by Paul Teutul of Orange County Choppers, and he had more money than I did. 6 years went by with out seeing another black one until Paul decided to sell his. I had to have a black car no matter what. I bought the cars 2 hrs after it was for sale and over paid for it, but I have a black car now. There are alot of cars painted black, but very few factory black. I am not a fan of any car any color that is not a born with color. Perhaps the bidders are like me. Willing to pay more for something that they really want.

[geeteeohguy]

Well put, 6T5. And my esperience, exactly, all the way on the opposite side of the country. For the past 35+ years. Last real Starlight Black '65 I saw for sale was a 4bbl 4 speed car in San Francisco for $700 in 1985. The tops of the fenders, quarters, and roof were rusted through like lace from being at the beach all its life. Original paint with a red pinstripe, too. It was a shame. I passed on that one.

[marxjunk]

whats driving the price is the buyers..not the seller....its been for sale for a long time on craigslist...they had no idea it was a trips car at first....and it was about half price at first

threads like this crack me up....ITS A 65 GTO-TRIPOWER -4 SPEED and BLACK....thats whats driving the price....geez...around here its probably $12.5 to $15....there just arent any 65s available around here that are still unrestored...and that car isnt an old restore its just been painted..and ITS A TRIPS 4 SPEED BLACK car....

[67_Krewzer]

Originally Posted by Doug

Missing its original tri-power/Muncie drivetrain, this car can NEVER be restored to "original". Unless the original motor is found and installed, it will ALWAYS be a "clone"!
Accordingly, any other "clone" is substantially the same value as this "real" car. A review of recent listings of "clone" cars will show that they can be bought as finished cars for a lot less than what it will take to fix/repair/update this car.

This car is a mess! It is obviously a hodgepodge of pieces/parts and is pretty much a basket case as far as the interior/dashboard/instrumentation/bumpers/trim/nuts and bolts/etc. (Yea! I know I left out a lot!)

Take out your parts catalog/look on Ebay/read other ads. Add up the prices of what it will cost to fix this car. Add in the cost of the body work/paint job/upholstery, etc. The price this car is currently bidding at ($8,700) plus all these other out-of-pocket costs PLUS labor costs will be greater than what a REAL original car can be bought for.

If that is not enough, a black car is the absolute hardest car to make/keep looking straight!

Anybody else agree with this statement? I don't. I guess I’ll throw my documented tri-power, 4 speed, LL paint code, non-original “WS” engine GTO in the dumpster as well. Seeing that it will ALWAYS be a "clone".

I do agree that this car is a mess and is a hodgepodge of pieces and parts.

I do agree that my 67 Firebird is a clone. It was born a plain jane Firebird with standard interior and a previous owner dropped in a 400, added a 400 hood with 400 emblems, 400 grill and interior.

[geeteeohguy]

I agree with you, '67. I disagree with Doug. This car is a real GTO, not a clone. It was born a black trips 4 speed car, and that is its pedigree. No argument. A restored but cloned Tempest or Lemans will never even come close to the value of this car in restored condition. And that's as it should be. Even with a completely different powertrain, it'll always be a real GTO.

[Greg Reid]

Jeff, I think you may be misunderstanding what Doug meant by 'clone'. I don't want to put words in his mouth but what I understood him to be saying is that any car that doesn't have it's born-with equipment (or at least drive train) is a clone. I disagree but I think that's what he was saying. He was not saying that the car in question wasn't an actual GTO.
By that standard a good 95% or more of the cars on this forum are clones.

[Unclesamscandy]

Originally Posted by Doug

Missing its original tri-power/Muncie drivetrain, this car can NEVER be restored to "original". Unless the original motor is found and installed, it will ALWAYS be a "clone"!

Accordingly, any other "clone" is substantially the same value as this "real" car. A review of recent listings of "clone" cars will show that they can be bought as finished cars for a lot less than what it will take to fix/repair/update this car.

This car is a mess! It is obviously a hodgepodge of pieces/parts and is pretty much a basket case as far as the interior/dashboard/instrumentation/bumpers/trim/nuts and bolts/etc. (Yea! I know I left out a lot!)

Take out your parts catalog/look on Ebay/read other ads. Add up the prices of what it will cost to fix this car. Add in the cost of the body work/paint job/upholstery, etc. The price this car is currently bidding at ($8,700) plus all these other out-of-pocket costs PLUS labor costs will be greater than what a REAL original car can be bought for.

If that is not enough, a black car is the absolute hardest car to make/keep looking straight!

I agree with most of this but the first sentence. If it is a real GTO, having a replacement drivetrain does not make it a "clone." Many GTO cars (maybe a majority) do not currently sit with their "born with" drivetrain. Most have had some part of the drivetrain replaced whether it be motor/tranny/rearend. A huge number of the rare cars such as the RAM AIR cars and JUDGES, have had restamped engines and just about anything (here come the flames!!!) that came from the showroom with 4.33 gears or higher lost its engine by the time Disco music was all the rage.


This year I sold a matching numbers HO 68 Bird I had for some years. I had a prospective buyer tell me that because it lost its long branch manifolds in the day "it would never really be a matching numbers car." This was a guy who I wanted to run far and fast from... For some people there is nothing pristine enough unless it was in a time capsule.

I digress- to that last part- owning a black Firebird myself (my car won Best in Show at the 2012 Firebird Nation show in Malta, NY so the car is really lazer straight) I can personally attest to black being the one color that will take the fun out of owning a musclecar!!! I will NEVER buy another black car again!!!

[geeteeohguy]

Uncle Sam and Greg, aI appeciate the posts. I agree with UncleSam. Doug is mis-informed on the definition of clone. A clone is a replica. A FAKE. A counterfeit. Not a modified or repaired original car. "one that appears to be a copy of an original form", as stated in Webster's. So the phrase that this car would be a clone with a non-original drivetrain in it is false. Even with a 340 Mopar engine and a torquflite, this GTO would not be a clone. It would be a real GTO that was no longer original. BIG difference in value and rarity. Originals are rare. Copies are infinite.

[John V.]

I was jaded by GTO pricing because I bought my first GTO in 1973 for $150.

'64 convertible, Cameo White, White Top, Dark Blue interior. 4 bbl, 3 spd, Safe-T-Track rear. Original drivetrain.

Ever since that time, I've had a hard time accepting the escalating prices for GTOs. But they are caused by other hobbyists willing to pay those prices.

Before you think anybody had overpaid for this car, consider that LOTS of ebay car auctions never get consummated. Until you determine that money has actually changed hands, the bid price is meaningless.

It is obvious this car did NOT undergo a ground up resto completed in 1990.

Gotta wonder why the car was stripped of anything of value and then slapped together with odds and ends with a red paint job.

Reminds me of my 4 spd '73 TA with deluxe Saddle interior. Interior was pretty mint. Trans & rear were original (block was too when I bought it, but ate a carb stud, cracked, and I tossed it in the dumpster, literally). I got hit hard in the left rear quarter, then sold for $300 in '80. A few years ago, I found the VIN in some old paperwork and then tracked the car down. It had been converted to auto, clutch pedal tied up under the dash. A later model interior had been installed. It was obvious to me that the car had been parted out down to the shell and then resurrected from boneyard stuff. It was not drivable at the time. Owned by a young guy who hoped to restore it one day.

But as to what the GTO is worth, if you have to have a Black 4 spd, Tri-Power '65 Hardtop, does it really matter that it will cost more to restore than it will ever be worth?

Just aren't that many out there. Rumor is Keith would trade his for last week's winning Powerball ticket. Then again, probably just a rumor.

How many of you would drool over this car if it was restored to factory correct condition?

I have never been very impressed with "original" or "matching nos." especially when that tends to be limited to the engine. I prefer "factory correct" considering the entire car.

Doug would call what I admire a "clone". That's okay, everybody has a different idea of what they really like.

I'm a convertible guy and a '64 guy at that, so hardtops don't do a lot for me. But I love Keith's car because of the story behind it. Yes, it retains a lot of its from the factory parts but that isn't what is most interesting about his car to me.

The ebay car probably has a completely unknown history aside from the PHS doc. That detracts from the car in my view. "Special Order"? Essentially, every '65 Pontiac was special ordered by somebody working for a Pontiac dealership. Some were ordered for Dealer stock, some were ordered for a live customer to the customer's particular specifications. But I doubt anybody knows why this car was ordered with the options it had or who the original retail purchaser was. Just know that it was invoiced to some Pontiac Dealer in the Chicago Zone.

I hope whoever buys it turns up on this forum. I don't care what he paid for it. Anybody that is into the '64/'65 GTO is alright by me.

[marxjunk]

I dont think black is rare..ive sent 3 to the crusher...today they would probably be builders..back then they where so ruff they got parted..ive seen 4 or 5 converts black, and at least 10 black hardtops in Junkyards...

I think the combination of black with trips and a 4 speed is just desirable..id rather have mariner turquois..but no one asked me..lol

[Unclesamscandy]

My black car, every time I think of her-
I think about that eyelash that fell out
And landed on the finish as I was polishing her
At the show.

The one that you could see on the hood
Ten feet away, and made people stop
And look at that Godawful
Flaw in the paint.

Of course when the wind blew
30 seconds later, the flaw blew away
And then landed some tree pollen
Sadly this then

Looked as if someone took a 2 liter
Pepsi bottle and shook it and then
Squarely aimed it at my finish
In mist form.

[RAJ7395]

Interesting thread. I was wondering what the current value of a (A) starlight black (213) black interior 65 GTO tri-power four speed is as there is one for sale locally. It's a solid survivor that needs everything. The engine is not original and the interior is now white.

[geeteeohguy]

From what I can tell by the pictures, about 10k for openers. That car needs to be snagged!

[Chris65LeMans]

Originally Posted by RAJ7395

Interesting thread. I was wondering what the current value of a (A) starlight black (213) black interior 65 GTO tri-power four speed is as there is one for sale locally. It's a solid survivor that needs everything. The engine is not original and the interior is now white.

Does it run? Those seat covers are incorrect for a '65.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

From what I can tell by the pictures, about 10k for openers. That car needs to be snagged!

I'm kinda glad that car is not near me. I'd be wheeling and dealing like a %$##@ trying to figure a way to make that one mine.

[RAJ7395]

The owner says it runs well but she was not there when I stopped by. She got it in a divorce settlement and didn't know much about the car.

I talked to a friend that's an expert on early GTOs (also a member of this forum) and he also looked it over. He said that he's known the car locally for at least 25 years and it was stored inside for at least that long. His thoughts were that it was a $8-10k car and is an excellent starting point. He said he might put in an offer but is on the fence at the moment.

If it's still for sale tomorrow, I'll go grab the VIN and run PHS on it to confirm that it started life as a tri-power 4-spd car.

Wish I still had that 65 WS block I found in a local barn as there's a high likely hood that it was the original block for this car.

Yeah.. The seats aren't correct and they are also supposed to be black.

I'll update this thread if anything happens.

[RAJ7395]

Update - The car was purchase by a gentleman from Iowa and will be restored.