[Steve C.]

I believe it was based on Dave Bischopps dyno testing but Cliff Ruggles has reported going to solid roller lifters with about .006" lash on a hydraulic roller lobe will show some additional power at high rpms. The engine will make about the same power thru about 4500 rpms. From there on up the engine will rev a bit faster and peak at a slightly higher rpm. That said, just keep in mind we are not talking about a lot of additional power and not a lot more peak power rpm involved with the change. Harry K has also posted similar results with his chassis dyno testing with and without solid roller lifters on a hyd roller lobe.


.

[tom s]

I have never seen a back to back test with solids and hyd on the same cam,same intake and same carb with the springs recommended by Comp.If it has been done would like to see who,when and where.Tom

[jonmachota78]

Originally Posted by mike76

Again... the original question... Why would one run solids on a hydraulic roller if a set of hyd. lifters will give me more vs the solids(10-12*). I've read here that is the "rule of thumb". What am I missing? Am thinking that the hyd. lifters will give me enough rpm w/o the ultra stiff springs needed for the solid stuff.

Because without exotic valvetrain components (PDude solution), hyd rollers are going to have ishues above 5800 or so rpm(float, pumpup). You're going to need valvetrain stability more like 6800+ rpm to reach your goals. This puts you square in solid lifter territory. And without having to regularly inspect your lifters i would recomend bushings for the street.

[ta man]

Originally Posted by mike76

OKay. This is through SD perf. D.B. is supplying everything. for that projected power level. 340 cfm heads, 10.5 cr., specially tooled intake ,etc. I don't have much doubt that through his recommendations I will arrive @ this power level. Again... the original question... Why would one run solids on a hydraulic roller if a set of hyd. lifters will give me more vs the solids(10-12*). I've read here that is the "rule of thumb". What am I missing? Am thinking that the hyd. lifters will give me enough rpm w/o the ultra stiff springs needed for the solid stuff.

You are in good hands trust Dave.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by jonmachota78

Because without exotic valvetrain components (PDude solution), hyd rollers are going to have issues above 5800 or so rpm(float, pump up). You're going to need valve train stability more like 6800+ rpm to reach your goals. This puts you square in solid lifter territory. And without having to regularly inspect your lifters i would recommend bushings for the street.

I dis-agree thru actual testing both on the street & strip. You need stability with any long duration camshaft.

[jonmachota78]

Ken, are you saying you can get 660-670 NA hp out of a 462cid engine using hydraulic rollers without using exotic valve train components (beehives, titanium retainers)?

[68blackbird]

Pdude which beehives and retainers would you recommend?

Rich

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by jonmachota78

Ken, are you saying you can get 660-670 NA hp out of a 462cid engine using hydraulic rollers without using exotic valve train components (beehives, titanium retainers)?

Since when are beehive springs and tit retainers expensive when the man is gonna spend over 3 grand on 342 cfm heads and 1600 on just a rotating assembly? And this doesn't include block and other add ons that will add up quick.
Ya lost me.
Even car manufactures use beehive springs. And they outlast a lot of std design springs over periods of time in heavy duty use. 660p isn't your mothers Oldsmoblie. LOL.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by 68blackbird

Pdude which beehives and retainers would you recommend?

Rich

Lot to go over as to installed height, cam profile (ramps, lift, etc), and major useage.

[Cliff R]

I've had quite a few of these engines on the dyno and at the track using HR set-ups. With "standard" weight valvetrain parts and PLENTY of spring pressure they start to experience valve train stability issues around 5800 rpm's. Adding more spring pressure (shimmed the springs .030") had zero effect on this the last time we were on the dyno with one of these engines.

My last 455 engine would literally tear your head off to exactly 5800rpm's, then just quit revving, like you hit a rev limiter. The same engine on the dyno spiked the graph pretty hard at exactly the same rpm's.

My new engine is very similar, although it has more cam and head flow, it will rev right past 5800rpm's and shows no signs of quitting to at least 6400rpm's. It uses the "tight lash" set-up, HIPPO solid rollers lashed at .005" on a HR camshaft.

A few things to consider with my comments. For the 455 engines using HR set-ups, we don't typically choose camshafts for them that will make peak power beyond 5800rpm's anyhow, so using a HR set-up is not an issue right to start with.

For any engine with enough head flow and camshaft to make peak power past 6000rpm's, I wouldn't even look at a HR set-up for it, even with ultra light retainers and beehive springs. Not saying it can't be done, woln't work correctly, or anything else. As mentioned earlier, you are well into solid roller territory at that point, so why use anything less?

I also do not trust the HR lifters we've been getting. Early versions were HORRIBLE, having too much plunger travel and they didn't have the internals right in them. The engine we just finished up a few days ago had short travel HR lifters from Howards. Most likely they are Morel lifters, but I have no way to confirm that. They also had a pretty stiff spring in the plunger assemblies, so may fair pretty well at high rpms.

Even with all that said, P-Dude has been running high rpm HR set-ups for quite a few years with great success. I'm sure Ken has science out what lobe profiles, springs, retainers and other valvetrain components will work with HR set-ups at high rpm's. Instead of playing on that playground I went to the "hybrid" set-ups here, with zero issues to date with any of them. The only downside of that deal is that you are going to have to check valve lash on occasion, so there is some maintenance involved......Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I also do not trust the HR lifters we've been getting. Early versions were HORRIBLE, having too much plunger travel and they didn't have the internals right in them. The engine we just finished up a few days ago had short travel HR lifters from Howards. Most likely they are Morel lifters, but I have no way to confirm that. They also had a pretty stiff spring in the plunger assemblies, so may fair pretty well at high rpms.

I believe Howards does supply Morels, and have spoke to several other builders using them (Morels) now with good results. I understand that Dave at SD supplies the 'new' Comp hyd rollers which are good, and have a 'D' in the part number (I have not confirmed this, word of mouth). Crane makes their' own from what I've heard, are good, but are considerably more expensive. I've heard by word of mouth that folks are having luck with the Scorpions, but considering the source, I didn't want to take a chance.

I was sweating the selection as I correct issues on the Olds engine, and struggled with going hyd roller over solids. As many know, I've had great success running solids on the street, driver has near 100k miles, and no issues. And I have not experienced adjustment intervals many speak about, or loss of needle bearings. I don't have a rev limiter on that engine, and I let it go until it doesn't build any more RPM.

.

[grandville455]

Ken
What do u think about these springs? comp 26056

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by grandville455

Ken
What do u think about these springs? comp 26056

Depends how aggressive. Nice for a BIG hyd roller. More strip then street. They will also work for a under 6400rpm solid lifter on a hyd roller cam............... as long as the custom grind uses a fairly average ramp.

I ran a similar spring (155/405 w/.650 lift) but taller Installed height for my hyd roller set up.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Depends how aggressive. Nice for a BIG hyd roller. More strip then street. They will also work for a under 6400rpm solid lifter on a hyd roller cam............... as long as the custom grind uses a fairly average ramp.

I ran a similar spring (155/405 w/.650 lift) but taller Installed height for my hyd roller set up.

I was thinking about them on my road paver hyd/solid setup 246/252....600 lift, my car is street driven also to track etc,, Running the crane 99893 springs and tit ret now... I could set them at a taller IH Than 1.800.. but the tech at ferrae said to run them as close to coil bind as u can with that .060 clearance

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by grandville455

I was thinking about them on my road paver hyd/solid setup 246/252....600 lift, my car is street driven also to track etc,, Running the crane 99893 springs and tit ret now... I could set them at a taller IH Than 1.800.. but the tech at ferrae said to run them as close to coil bind as u can with that .060 clearance

I agree as far as running the right springs close to Coil bind to get the best results as to valvetrain stability at upper rpms. Less chance of spring bounce too. .

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

I agree as far as running the right springs close to Coil bind to get the best results as to valvetrain stability at upper rpms. Less chance of spring bounce too. .

Do U think the 26056 will be better than my crane 99893 i Have now? What about longevity compared to the double springs on the street? They both have 400 for the rate, But I think the cranes are around 380 open, compared to these at 420, More seat pressure to control valve better too, Mine are around 145

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by grandville455

Do U think the 26056 will be better than my crane 99893 i Have now? What about longevity compared to the double springs on the street? They both have 400 for the rate, But I think the cranes are around 380 open, compared to these at 420, More seat pressure to control valve better too, Mine are around 145

Darby,

How many miles on the street, time installed(years), and track passes do you have on those springs? Just curious about how they are standing up with that cam. I'm going to run them on the street in my daily driver with the Stump Puller so I'm interested in how they stand up under more extreme circumstances than I will run them under. I'm hoping to use them for at least 150,000 miles.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

Darby,

How many miles on the street, time installed(years), and track passes do you have on those springs? Just curious about how they are standing up with that cam. I'm going to run them on the street in my daily driver with the Stump Puller so I'm interested in how they stand up under more extreme circumstances than I will run them under. I'm hoping to use them for at least 150,000 miles.

Karl,
I put them in may 2012, Probably have close to 150-200 runs on them, and then maybe 1500 miles? If I decide to run these Beehives I will have my current springs checked at open and closed pressures and let you know..

[Steve C.]

Darby correct me if I'm wrong but if memory serves me right didn't you have a previous set of Crane 99893 springs and after some drag strip passes were down to 130 lbs at about 1.800" IH ?


.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Darby correct me if I'm wrong but if memory serves me right didn't you have a previous set of Crane 99893 springs and after some drag strip passes were down to 130 lbs at about 1.800" IH ?


.

Yes I think so Steve, I will check one or two cylinders this spring and go from there... I would like to try these beehives on this setup.