[MikeNoun]

Alvin, that's true about the Chevy truck (those Lil' Red Express trucks also enjoyed some serious street credibility in later years).

Note I stated that the 1973 GTO was ONE OF the fastest cars of 1973 (obviously the 1973 SD-455 Trans Am gets the respect here). The 1973-1974 GTO's were quick for the years they were offered, no different than how the 1978-1979 TA 6.6 cars are viewed, or even the 80-81 Turbo Trans Am's and Formulas. They weren't tire blistering old school musclecars, they weren't going to beat a 1969 RAIV car, but they were fast compared the rest of the Detroit automotive landscape at the time.

Always at (or near) the top of the performance ladder, that's why we love Pontiacs.

So if you don't accept the 1974 GTO, then I guess that's YOUR problem. They are GTO's, and they deserve to be treated with the same respect as any other year GTO. They don't have to be your favorite, they don't have to be the fastest, but if everyone loved the same year car, life would be pretty dull.

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

The HSV division of Holden is the limited production, highly optioned, high performance, portion of the Holden line, how is that entry level? The term entry level is no where near that car and does not apply, even remotely. Limited production means they did not make many of them and maybe that's why there are so few of them, Ya think? Oh and BTW, they are considered collector cars down under because of the LIMITED PRODUCTION such as maybe say Shelby Mustangs.

"Entry level" is the bottom rung of the ladder in any job, car, etc. it's lowest on the totem pole. A Vega would be an entry level car. A first car, cheapest priced, few options and slow. Neither the HSV GTO nor the Pontiac GTO is a spartan, equipped, low priced car.

If no one in the US knew anything about a HSV GTO coupe, how is it that I know about it?

The people that say that it should have never been called a GTO, as yourself and John V, don't know anything about Holden or their cars and simply put the car was limited production a top of the line performance coupe both here and in Australia bearing the GTO model designation. The car fits the definition fine. What seems to be foggy to you is that it was a GTO in the Holden lineup and it continued to be a GTO when it was imported by GM, which incidentally owns Holden. Maybe I'm the only one in the US that knows that also, but I doubt it.

One other thing the detractors always say is that they never sold well here and there are many more late Mustangs around. Guess what, the car was also a Limited Production car in the US too. Holden said they could never expect to build more than 18,000 units a year before even one car for the US was made. GM also had an agreement with the US unions that they would not import more than 18,000 cars a year. Also the sticker price was North of 32,000 dollars so not many young adults had the means to buy one. Mustangs were a bunch cheaper.

The HSV GTO is equipped much the same as the imported GTO sold here, except for right hand drive, coincidence? I think not. You need to read up some more about Holden because you seem to have a distorted knowledge from what you've posted. While your at it look up entry level too.

I'll put entry level in terms you can relate to. An 18 YO kid comes in your store and wants to buy his GF a ring, He wants one with a diamond in it but only has $300, Hes going to buy an entry level diamond, not a 1 carat marquis cut, right?

John V, yep I bought one because of the name, and I actually drove one too. Believe me there are no disappointments when driving one of these cars. I have 92,000 on mine at this point and am quite pleased with the car over 8 years now and it's been every bit as good of a car as any of the other 8-10 GTOs I've owned, it's actually been a better car than the "Real" GTOs were.

So a car that's loaded out can't be entry level. BS. Every brand/line has entry level. Since the more expensive car was the GTS, that makes the GTO the entry level model. Fairly simple, you should understand. Entry level means different things to different people. Entry level to somebody with money is different than to somebody with less money. There is always somebody with more and somebody with less. Each has to decide and in the car buyers case mother Holden gave the shopper a cheaper and a more expensive option. The GTO was the cheaper. Entry level.

Yes, I dare say less than .001% of the US population knew about a Holden GTO. My assumption holds as much water as yours.

Great discussion about Mustangs and how many "GTO"'s they planned to sell. Fits.

bold.....wanted to bold something

The Holden "GTO" and the imported Pontiac "GTO" being equipped similarly means nothing.

Look up the sales numbers for the Holden. In the few years they made it production totaled practically nothing. Makes sense to me that Pontiac would import something that Holden made few of, that nobody here had ever heard of. But then again with the "GTO"s success here, if that was the plan, it worked.

[Alvin]

I too wanted to bold something and point out this is post #103 for 1974 GTO's!

[rexs73gto]

To those who don't read the lists , the 73 & 74 GTO's were just as fast as the original GTOS of the 64-72 models if you compare modle for model. The 64 ran a blistering 15.3 1/4 miles back then . Then when you look at all the GTO's that were produced except the RAIV cars & even they weren't as fast as history has ballooned them out to be. Most of all the 4 bbl GTO all ran in the low 14 sec 1/4 mile times. Even the RAIV 69 's only ran the 1/4 in 13.6. It's all the people who don't really know Or have ever been to a track know how fast 14. sec in the 1/4 mile is. I have heard all kind of STORIES about older GTO's that were running 10 sec. 1/4 miles . But all of us who know how fast 10. sec. is really know that was NEVER true. My 73 GTO when it was brand new , I had about 8500 miles on it the first time I took it to the track. I ran what I though was a great time of 14.3 @ 92 miles per hour. I felt like I was flying. Most of the cars that were there that day except for the all out race cars were going about that speed , some a little better & some worse. Most every street GTO or Chevelle & Mustang & Road Runner were right there with me. If you look up the real truth about times for the older cars you'll know what the facts are & not the over blown stories that some have told. On the street between 65-70 a quick time was 13.0. Then you were faster then most. Once the cas were played with then they became a little faster. But so did my 73. But factory cars were not faster then any others of any years, it's just that Pontiac & GM were trying to play down performance & thats why you didn't hear about HP as much back then. In fact when I went in to order my 73 I wanted a SD car. I did get to order it but it got canceled after 4 different time of getting picked up & then finally told it wasn't going to get built. But the salesman tried his damnest to talk me out of the good engine because it wasn't going to get the best mileage. When I said I didn't care he had another guy come in & try to talk me out of it , but I ordered still. But then because I was in the Navy & out of town when the order got canceled the last time I ended up with a left over. Thats the car I have now. But it ran great. SO don't let the stories of the past performance of the early GTO cloud the facts.

[Sirrotica]

No, the Commodore is the lowest price in that body, as I said earlier.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by David Jones

The GTS was the top level HSV to start with, but they couldn't give them away. The GTO was the opener. The term "entry level" applies.

And yes, 5 seconds to 60 is fast but put that engine in a mail truck and it would be fast too.

I can assure you that Holden calling one of their Monaro's a GTO had NOTHING to do with Pontiac calling their import a GTO. Nobody here new anything about a Holden HSV GTO in 2004 (or now....) and considering how many they sold in Australia, few people down there did either.

Anyone interested in Holden or LS1 powered cars knew about the hopped up HSV cars. HSV cars got MUCH MUCH MUCH more power/equipment than regular Holden cars. HSV is like a ROUSH or Lingenfelter but Holden worked with HSV on these cars. HSV also did the Vaxhuall cars for the UK. Here is the Monaro/GTO/whatever you want to call it being tested by Top Gear UK. They kind of like it.

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

Anyone interested in Holden or LS1 powered cars knew about the hopped up HSV cars. HSV cars got MUCH MUCH MUCH more power/equipment than regular Holden cars. HSV is like a ROUSH or Lingenfelter but Holden worked with HSV on these cars. HSV also did the Vaxhuall cars for the UK. Here is the Monaro/GTO/whatever you want to call it being tested by Top Gear UK. They kind of like it.

That's nice.

[David Jones]

I found a comment on this Wikipedia page interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_Coupe

[threefidee]

I was only 5 when the 74's came out and have no recollection of them so I do not have a lot of the issues that some people do about going from the 64 that started everything, to the 70 cars that had RA 4's and getting faster and then going down in performance, huge change in body styles, etc. When Smokey and the Bandit came out my dad took me to the drive in to see it and when that Trans Am did the burnout at the stop lights I was hooked into muscle cars. Dad was a Pontiac guy so that was the direction I took. The coolest car I can remember was back in the 80's and it was a street machine but that is what I gravitated towards at the time. Here was my favorite.

[Alvin]

Who is the current 1974 GTO (and same platform x body yrs) POCI Technical Advisor?

http://www.poci.org/POCI_Officers_and_Directors.cfm.

[marks73ta]

I got married in Sept '71. I bought a new '72 HO 455 Trans Am Feb. of 1972. Late ,73 when the '74 GTO came out I went up to the little local Pontiac dealer and they had just received a "RED" (see they were all red, LOL) '74 GTO with most all options. I no longer remember the sticker but I really liked the car. The 350 did not bother me because I knew its potential and I also knew any Pontiac would virtually bolt in. The only thing that turned me off was the cheap Nova Dash. It was just not up to the standards of a GTO. It had a nice white/black interior which looked really good. Rally gauges in the console too. But GTOs were known for their great feeling solid, classy interiors. The dash on the '74 looked too Nova. But with that said, I would not hesitate to own one if I found a good and affordable example.
P.S. My second Pontiac was a '6 GTO.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by David Jones

I found a comment on this Wikipedia page interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_Coupe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_...auxhall_Monaro

Funny all the Pontiac/Holden relations through the years.

[JLHarper]

Originally Posted by marks73ta

I got married in Sept '71. I bought a new '72 HO 455 Trans Am Feb. of 1972. Late ,73 when the '74 GTO came out I went up to the little local Pontiac dealer and they had just received a "RED" (see they were all red, LOL) '74 GTO with most all options. I no longer remember the sticker but I really liked the car. The 350 did not bother me because I knew its potential and I also knew any Pontiac would virtually bolt in. The only thing that turned me off was the cheap Nova Dash. It was just not up to the standards of a GTO. It had a nice white/black interior which looked really good. Rally gauges in the console too. But GTOs were known for their great feeling solid, classy interiors. The dash on the '74 looked too Nova. But with that said, I would not hesitate to own one if I found a good and affordable example.
P.S. My second Pontiac was a '6 GTO.

A neighborhood buddy bought one new, a 74 Red one also and recall it had a white vinyl top and interior....(?)

Man, we, as in the car crowd in the area couldn't believe how times had changed.

Compared to the new 75 Nova SS in med aqua he traded it for a year later, the GTO was nice.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Who is the current 1974 GTO (and same platform x body yrs) POCI Technical Advisor?

http://www.poci.org/POCI_Officers_and_Directors.cfm.

None listed.

There is a '67-'85 Pontiac Tech Advisor listed but that seems a pretty general category.

Mike Nixon is the Tech Adviser Coordinator. I'm sure POCI would welcome anybody with extensive knowledge of the X body platform to step up as Tech Advisor.

[69goatboy]

74 GTO?
I never really cared for them and kind of dismissed them......
...until I saw one up close.

Now I like 'em.

The one I saw belongs to a member here (I won't say which member, because I don't want him to get a big head over it. )

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_...auxhall_Monaro

Funny all the Pontiac/Holden relations through the years.

Yep. Funny. A relationship that did NOT name the 2004-2006 Pontiac "GTO" after the Holden HSV Coupe GTO. Pontiac already knew something about the GTO name..........

[John V.]

This thread has gone all over the place.

Do I have this straight? HSV is a partnership venture with Holden and is basically a performance conversion company that produced and sold a GTO in Australia based on the 2001 Holden Monaro Coupe and then the mildly updated 2004 Holden Monaro Coupe.

Lutz gets the idea that he can sell a GTO in the U.S. market based on the Holden Monaro, HSV has nothing to do with the build, Holden themselves produce the U.S. destined Pontiac GTO model, mildly differentiated with specific styling cues from the Aussie Monaro.

In '05, the Aussie Monaro ceases production but Holden continues to produce the coupe for HSV conversions and for the U.S. destined Pontiac GTO.

Lutz's hope to sell 18,000 units annually fizzles (the UAW must have been pleased that the import GTO fell flat). Bitten by a weakening U.S. dollar, the car is criticized for employing a dated platform and unmuscular styling at a price point that was hard to justify.

In a 3 model year run, Pontiac eventually sells about 41,000 GTOs.

Brad, you should know that I have ALWAYS and CONSISTENTLY believed that the '04-'06 GTOs were very good cars and great bang for the buck.

But the target market largely rejected it. I say that not just because Pontiac sold about 25% fewer than Lutz believed they would, but also, the lackluster sales was indicative of zero excess demand. In other words, Lutz didn't just figure to sell 18,000 GTOs and satisfy ALL demand, he expected 30,000 buyers scrambling in hopes of being a lucky buyer. That never happened. When the last GTO arrived in the U.S., there was probably a better than 90 day supply of unsold GTOs still on dealer lots.

It surprises me when you say you bought BECAUSE of the nameplate. Okay, maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe ALL of the 41,000 GTOs sold were sold to guys like you that the GTO nameplate was a big part of the appeal.

But I still contend it was a marketing gaffe. No way for me to prove it, but I contend that an all new nameplate would have generated a much broader appeal within the target market. It is my belief that the car should have easily sold 18,000 units and had buyers clamoring for many more.

Perhaps the buyers who did get one like the fact that they were sold in more limited nos. Perhaps makes them more valuable as a collectible.

But that did nothing for GM. I am certain GM would have preferred to sell 54,000, not 41,000. And I'm equally certain that Pontiac would have preferred to see double the foot traffic wanting "in" as compared to the actual foot traffic generated by the GTO.

And in the end, I blame the nameplate choice itself for that failure. It proved to be polarizing. And I believe that stymied sales.

You make the claim that the car meets the definition of GTO so deserves to wear the nameplate.

I'd forgotten, but reminded by Mr. GTO's link that the Holden Monaro was rebadged for other markets too, can you say Chevy Lumina?

It really isn't a matter of whether it deserves the GTO name. From a performance standpoint, I would argue that for the '90s, the Mitsubishi GTO was certainly worthy of the name but that doesn't mean I think it should enjoy a heritage with the '64-'74 Pontiac GTO.

No '64-'74 GTO was ever homologated to any GT racing class.

And even Ferrari cheated in order to gain homologation for their GTO, as they never produced enough examples to meet FIA rules for homologation.

What I personally question is the connection between the '64-'74 Pontiac GTOs and the '04-'06 Pontiac GTOs. When new, the '64-'74 were trendsetters. They defined the musclecar category and all others attempted to "me too" the GTO, in particular at the height of the category's popularity.

In contrast, the '04-'06 did not spawn a category. Powerful engine in a small rear wheel drive chassis? Nothing new there. Heck, even Pontiac insisted that it was intended to compete with other imports (in part because the price had inflated) rather than the Mustang as example.

The dated platform put it at a disadvantage vs. newer more refined competition.

I don't consider them the red headed step child of the Pontiac GTO family. They stand by themselves. If anything, their family is the Holden Monaro family. Whatever the connection Lutz thought they would have to the '64-'74 GTOs simply escapes me with the exception of the nameplate.

Mainly I believe the car would have sold better with a different name. It's just an opinion.

[69goatboy]

I've always thought the 04-06 GTO sales flustered because of the lack of an entry level vehicle into the family. Meaning that there wasn't a V6 option that was competitively marketed.

i.e. Ford Mustang. I believe that I read somewhere that two thirds of all Mustangs sold were not V8's.

Perhaps the partnership with Holden wouldn't allow such an offering.

[GOAT WHORE]

Originally Posted by John V.

doesn't mean I think it should enjoy a heritage with the '64-'74 Pontiac GTO.

I don't consider them the red headed step child of the Pontiac GTO family. They stand by themselves. If anything, their family is the Holden Monaro family. Whatever the connection Lutz thought they would have to the '64-'74 GTOs simply escapes me with the exception of the nameplate.

The ONLY connection is the name plate!

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer

Was the 64 GTO based on the chevelle, cutlass or special platform???

Nope. There was no Chevelle before '64. All the GM A-bodies went together to that platform in '64 as a far as I know. Just like Chevy and Pontiac went together to the F-body platform in '67. Can't really say that one 'copied' the other.
Conversely, the Nova had been around for 10 years by the time the GTO went to the x-body.
I personally like the X body GTOs ...and even plain Venturas a little bit better than the '73s...but more for what you can make them than what they were born as...and not as much as the '64-'72 A bodies.