[rtanner]

i cant see anything out of whack either, hey man isnt nunzis shop still open ?? im sure his kid make a service call, if somebody was close, whatever it is will show up when eyeballs get on it

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Formula8

Here is a write up that may assist the OP: http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/clutches_etc.htm

My instructions from centerforce gave me the spec. I'll see if I can find it but as I remember, I set it the same as this guy in his video @ 4.750:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=22TwNOpXcPA

I was looking at that write up, and found a number of errors, then basically gave up. I realize that in a 'conversion' situation, some areas need to be verified, but terminology is still terminology, and how some of the 'checks' were done were off base. For one, you don't measure air gap with a ruler between the pressure plate fingers and the bearing. It's done with a feeler gauge with the pedal depressed. Also, there are different bearings for pressure plates that have straight fingers, the edges of the bearing are rolled.

Unfortunately, at work, YouTube is blocked, but will check that vid when I get home.

The only time I can think of that an adjustable pivot ball would help is in an instance where you use one of those flat finger pressure plates, because the amount of throw/travel is critical. The range of motion is very short with those type, so any slop, or incorrect geometry, can/will impact operation. In almost all other situations, you can compensate with throw out bearings and adjustment.

If yours is working fine, then obviously, there's no issue, I'm just pointing out that it most likely was corrected with the throw out bearing, the pivot ball could have remained, and there's a bunch of ways to cook that chicken.

Clutch air gap is critical for proper disengagement, clutch free play is critical due to engine to body movement, so both need to be correctly adjusted. Back in the day, when folks would push a 4 speed car hard(or 3 for that matter), it was possible to have the clutch or shifter hang during hard acceleration. Diaphragm pressure plates were notorious for not engaging at high RPM, and wouldn't engage until you let off the gas. That's why Borg & Beck pressure plates came about. CenterForce deals with the problem by adding weights to the fingers on a diaphragm pressure plate, but, those weights can get hung between fingers, at high RPM they can still hang, and the weights can fall off. I know lots of folks have good results with them, but IMO, they're just a typical diaphragm with a band aid.

.

[F ROCK]

the parts counter said "we have a raised diaphragm pressure plate for oem applications, and we have another one that I have no details.,.."

I asked for the raised diaphragm piece. but when installed the tines are almost flat on the one I received. that's why I want to exchange it. I just want to compare it with another. something wrong with that?
I don't remember the pressure plates I've installed in the past being flat like that.
perhaps they gave me the other one.

here is a pic of the fork.
here also is a pic of the pressure plate. you cannot tell in the photo but the tines are almost flat.

[JSPONT]

Your fork looks okay, it might be a clutch/throw out bearing combo. I would compare it to another one. Do you have another auto parts besides napa near you? My diaphram fingers angle out,seems like yours are straighter. I would compare the 2 they have.

[Formula8]

Obviously the .250 too short t/o bearing contributed most to my issue but my pivot ball was very far out of spec. As well. Now it's entirely possible that my prior set up was a bit off in the other direction and I just got lucky and it worked. That's my point. Check everything and you won't have to guess and hope you get lucky

[HWYSTR455]

I can't tell 100% from the pic and with the boot on, but yeah, the fork angle looks ok.

Now I understand what your reasoning is to swap the setup, but let me say, the two that are listed, one is a 10.5" and the other is an 11" 'vette style, and are basically the same setup except for diameter.

So the two numbers for clutch sets are 1104019 and 1104020, the 19 is a 10.5, the 20 is the 11", so I am guessing you got the 19 setup?

There is also a 1104021 setup, which is listed for a 70 Chevelle, if you're going to the counter and plan on comparing, might want to take a look at that one too. It's also a 10.5 setup.

The 20 is listed for the 454, which makes sense. That same 20 is listed for the 70 Firebird, fyi, but again, it's an 11".

I'm pretty sure all the NAPA clutches are SACHs, which are pretty good OE replacement setups, but if you were going to go through the trouble to exchange the one you have, I would suggest you mail order a performance setup like a McLeod or Hayes. That of course is IF you choose to exchange the one you have. (While you're at it order a shifter pit pack, you need that anyway)

When the tines, or fingers, are more flat, to disengage, they need to go past center, on a raised finger pressure plate, they go flat to disengage. The flat finger pressure plates are usually lighter pedal effort, just to say, so that might be why you feel it's not disengaging or moving (actuating) at all.

Now that it's all together, you have all the slack taken out of the linkage? And when you press the pedal, how does it feel?

Next step is to take an air gap measurement, to determine if the clutch is disengaging. That is done with someone under the car, with a feeler gauge, stuck between the flywheel and the clutch disc, while someone pushes the pedal in. In general, the measurement should be in the .030 - .050 range for a street diaphragm pressure plate.

Once you determine that, you can move on to the free play measurement, which is required to allow for wear and pressure plate finger 'growth' at RPM.

.

[F ROCK]

more of the same.
ok I went to compare pressure plates but as highway star predicted, they were the same.
I exchanged 'em anyway just for kicks.

I have installed the kit and this one said torque to 30lbs, I think the other one said 40lbs but whatever...
ok before when I said it felt like nothing, it was because at full travel, I was just beginning to push on the tines. then when I lengthened the pushrod it was very very stiff.
now I have just the clutch, bellhousing, fork and springs assembled, without the trans attached.
when I push the pedal, the tines compress a little bit and then the whole engine moves, instead of the clutch disengaging.
I know that the engine needs to be supported in the rear by the trans mount, but I would think that the clutch would work a little bit. it doesn't. the tines seem stiff
so now i'm looking at the fork/ball situation. mine doesn't seem to pivot a real lot and it seems like it would work better if it wasn't clipped to the back of the bellhousing but i know that's wrong.
I've noticed that the spring retainer thing has a depression in it to hold the ball. the fork also has a depression but it doesn't line up with the one on the retainer spring.
here are those pics of the fork again. does it look like the factory piece?
i have minimized the slop in the zbar linkage, and i have tested it again. i'm positive that it is not binding, or hitting anything. it is delivering a lot of pressure to the fork but something is going wrong there somewhere.

maybe it's not binding and the solution really is to just get a taller bearing, as many have suggested.
but why, when using all factory parts, would i need a special bearing? what could have changed?
i'm not sure what year my bellhousing, or my fork are. did they ever change that stuff, and could i have a mismatch?
thanks again for sticking with me. i'm a little better rested now.

what do you think? should i throw the trans on there, and try to get a bolt in the trans-crossmember for support, and then try it?
i found the camera again so i can take more pics.

[JSPONT]

I wish you lived closer to me. With the rod adjusted, how much thread is showing? I am trying to see if the throw out bearing is to short, the medium one might give you more throw. You could be bottoming out the throw. Now at least you know it's not the clutch. you are narrowing it down. Your ball seems to be in way further than mine too. Make sure the ball is from a 68-72 abody not the 66 the bellhousing was out of.

[nytrainer]

Been following your thread and read that you don't seem to think the clutch disc is disengaging after your latest reinstall. We (my son really) finished up a clutch change (and swapped a Saginaw for a Muncie) and it was a PITA but he could do it in his sleep now lol. I'm sure you feel the same way.
Made final rod adjustment with the bellhousing's bottom sheetmetal cover removed and looking at the clutch disc while pedal was being depressed. It sure looked like nothing was happening but we were able to slide an .037 feeler gauge between the disc and the flywheel while preesing the clutch pedal. We assumed that the disengagement would be more obvious but to the naked eye (old ones at that) but it appears like nothing moves. For grins we released the pedal with the feeler in and the clutch disc would not let it go. Pulled out when depressed again.
Point is don't expect to see much movement between the clutch face and disc. BTW we used a Mcleod Street Pro clutch kit.

[TedRamAirII]

Just thinkin"..... but if you dont have the trans in, by you pushing in the clutch pedal, the engine may be torqing to the left and you will not get proper travel.

[F ROCK]

thanks guys.
yes. tomorrow i will try to find my feeler gauges.
I've been trying to contact the member that I've bought all this stuff from, and find out exactly where this fork came from, and a few other things, but he doesn't answer or return my calls.

[F ROCK]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Just thinkin"..... but if you dont have the trans in, by you pushing in the clutch pedal, the engine may be torqing to the left and you will not get proper travel.

i agree. i'll probably throw the trans in tomorrow and try it but i thought i'd see something even a little bit.

[HWYSTR455]

You had it together and you didn't take the air gap measurement? And you took it back apart why? Because it didn't feel right? You're trying it without the trans installed? What would that prove?

Where's the pic of the z bar and linkage?

It doesn't matter where all the stuff came from, that info really isn't going to tell you jack. If it works, it could have come from an Edsel and it wouldn't matter, because it works.

Again, here you are not following advice, and not approaching this methodically. Sorry for all your problems with this, but I'm done.

.

[silverbullet07]

Video is great to use to troubleshoot something. I was wondering about the operation of my throwout bearing and took a video and posted it so I could get feedback.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY3Y8jJCLXY

[F ROCK]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

You had it together and you didn't take the air gap measurement? And you took it back apart why? Because it didn't feel right? You're trying it without the trans installed? What would that prove?

Where's the pic of the z bar and linkage?

It doesn't matter where all the stuff came from, that info really isn't going to tell you jack. If it works, it could have come from an Edsel and it wouldn't matter, because it works.

Again, here you are not following advice, and not approaching this methodically. Sorry for all your problems with this, but I'm done.

.

umm, I haven't had it ALL back together yet. didn't read or look at the pics again huh?
so there you go again shooting off AGAIN without really knowing.
I have some advise for you too. pay attention if youre gonna shoot your mouth off, know what you're shooting off about. thanks.

[F ROCK]

I've installed the trans again. this time i removed the rubber fork boot, and found that
the fork bottoms out against the back of the fork opening before the clutch disengages.
so I guess I will have to "cook that chicken" with a bigger bearing after all; but again I wonder what is different that the stock bearing is too small?

[Held for Ransom]

Originally Posted by F ROCK

I've installed the trans again. this time i removed the rubber fork boot, and found that
the fork bottoms out against the back of the fork opening before the clutch disengages.
so I guess I will have to "cook that chicken" with a bigger bearing after all; but again I wonder what is different that the stock bearing is too small?

My take is the positioning of the fingers (or tines) on the pressure plate when bolted to the flywheel is different on each application and needs a different offset (if you will) throwout bearing to take up the slack. So, if your original package had the fingers 1.5" from the flywheel and you milled .2" off the flywheel and the new package is 1.25", I would look for a throwout bearing that was .45" longer. That's how I would look at it, but I'm not sure if it's right.

[HWYSTR455]

Look at post #12 and #14.

EDIT: Sorry, I was showing frustrations again, my bad.

.

[Held for Ransom]

HWY,
I looked at Post #14. Do you know how the adjustable unit works? I was thinking there were 3 separate units of this single unit (been a long time since owning/replacing a clutch).

[GTO Dan]

Sorry I didn't see this thread before, I could have likely saved you a lot if time and grief. It is the length of the pivot ball in the bellhousing (that the fork sits on). You need the ball on the attached link. As mentioned, you can also get a thicker release bearing to correct this but I prefer the adjustable pivot ball.

Follow measurement instructions, cut to length, and install. All adjustability and alignment will come back into play.

Also, as a side note, always install a simple spring from the fork to the clutch linkage (runs generally parallel to the clutch adjustment rod you will notice little holes drilled in the end of the fork and on the linkage for this) and a return spring from clutch pedal to the dash.

Just ask me how I know....

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-16908