[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Bill, if you look at the right side of the print, the right dowell pin hole is .6216"/.6226". That dimension is correct.

Directly below that dimension is a dimension specified at 4.565"/4.575". THAT DIMENSION IS WRONG (THE CORRECT DIMENSION SHOULD BE 4.1580" FROM THE RIGHT DOWELL PIN HOLE TO THE CENTER OF THE STARTER HOLE).

Below the plate is another dimension (from the LEFT DOWELL PIN HOLE to the CENTER OF THE STARTER) specified as 14.658"/14.662". THAT DIMENSION IS WRONG. The dimension should be 14.685".

Wilhite calculated the distance from the centerline of the crankshaft to the center of the starter as 7.234" (when the actual distance should have been 7.350" - 7.360" A MISTAKE OF ONLY .030" BUT ENOUGH TO SCREW UP THE STARTER ENGAGEMENT TO THE FLYWHEEL.

Some people try to move the bolt holes but you really need to move the STARTER CENTERLINE to the correct location and then things will line up properly and the starter will engage properly.

Tom Vaught

Gavins print has the starter center to crank center at 7.372.

My notes have my dimension at 7.352!!!

I may have typo'd the error to Gavin.

I also have a pinion to ring gear clearance of .025" (.020"-.030" is suggested clearance.) with a used pinion on a new TCI flexplate. a well used stock flexplate gives less than .027".

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Would you mind emailing me or texting me the excell file Tom sent you? Thanks

I sent the file to Charlie for HIS use, originally. Now some want Charlie to take MY corrected dimension info (sent to specifically Charlie) and have Charlie pass on the info to them.

I have to say I am disappointed in some of the members. Not even a simple "Thank You, Tom" (except from Charlie) as they attempt to "backdoor" my knowledge.

The print has been wrong for many years. This will correct some of the errors and possible allow some new applications to be built. At the end of the day that is what matters. Take the file and make some BETTER parts.

Tom V.

[johnta1]

Thanks Gavin for converting it into a usable drawing.
(he didn't copy Wilhites diagram either)

Plus Bruce, thanks for all the work you did on this.

Here is a thread from years ago by Bruce on this.

Block Plate

[Tom Vaught]

Your attached Thread will not open up, John. maybe you can get it to work properly on the MAXPERFORMANCE site.

Thanks Gavin for making the effort to try to design a proper adaptor plate for everyone to use with their projects.

Tom V.

[charlie66]

I would like to make a point of my observation about the drawing .

When looking at the drawing, you have a zero point presumably at the crank center line. You have X coordinates showing center to center spacing that are bisected by the vertical center line. You have Y coordinate spacing of holes center to center but no reference from the crank center line for proper plate location to the block.

[Bill Eveland]

On both Wilcap adapters 55-60 and 61-64 there are extensions on the crankshaft so it will be interesting to see what you guys come up without having to use a spacer.

[johnta1]

Block Plate

The thread number was cut off on previous link.

[BruceWilkie]

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=732389&page=2 Post 29 [quote]Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Tom would you mind sharing the dimensions with the rest of us?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=732389&page=2 Post 35

I sent Charlie a copy of the marked up print (excel file) have him forward it to you.

Tom V.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=732389&page=2 Post 38 (Me)

Charlie, 55-60 has a sqaurish pattern to it. the two top holes are close enough to use. Early blocks use 7/16" bolts vs say a 69 with 3/8" bolts. my 59 was not quite the samme center distance as the 69 was. I cant recall if i drilled tranny bolts to 15/32 or 31/64. The early block also has dowels in different location. Early 55--60 block sits back 1/4" apparently your 4 cylinder does too. Im pretty certain 61 up v8s dont.

Would you mind emailing me or texting me the excell file Tom sent you? Thanks

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I sent the file to Charlie for HIS use, originally. Now some want Charlie to take MY corrected dimension info (sent to specifically Charlie) and have Charlie pass on the info to them.

I have to say I am disappointed in some of the members. Not even a simple "Thank You, Tom" (except from Charlie) as they attempt to "backdoor" my knowledge.

The print has been wrong for many years. This will correct some of the errors and possible allow some new applications to be built. At the end of the day that is what matters. Take the file and make some BETTER parts.

Tom V.

TOM, I'm disappointed in YOU! I asked you originally to share with the rest of us.
Your reply was rather cold to say the least. YOUR reply was WHY I asked Charlie for the excell file...YOU told me to!

Had you shared it then you most certainly would have been thanked. Now you turn around and imply some(me?) are backdooring your knowledge?

I do appreciate you changing your mind after post 35 and sharing your info. Thank you.

The majority of us here are here to share knowledge. Not many here who want to play "I have a secret" or care who we share it with. When errors are found most want to know what the errors are without being made to look stupid or belittled for their error.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Bill Eveland

On both Wilcap adapters 55-60 and 61-64 there are extensions on the crankshaft so it will be interesting to see what you guys come up without having to use a spacer.

Bill a few of the nuts(the two above the dowels iirc) I welded to back of plate to bolt the t400 on needed very slight clearancing to not interfere with block. Wilcaps adapter is quite thick so it doesnt need nut plates and is threaded. Their crank spacer is to accomodate the thickness of the adapter.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by charlie66

I would like to make a point of my observation about the drawing .

When looking at the drawing, you have a zero point presumably at the crank center line. You have X coordinates showing center to center spacing that are bisected by the vertical center line. You have Y coordinate spacing of holes center to center but no reference from the crank center line for proper plate location to the block.

Agree its important.

Dowel center to dowel center divided by 2 will get you the vertical centerline.

http://www.pontiac-power.com/Adapter...-2-3-rev-B.pdf page 2 is the 55-60 pattern but pan rail to dowel center isnt clear. My 59 dowel center to pan rail dimension is 2.806" (fwiw the dowels measured .4985")

Dowel center to pan rail on a 400 I measured was 2.328 and a 455 was 2.329"
However http://www.pontiac-power.com/Adapter...-2-3-rev-B.pdf
drawing on page 3 shows it at 2.321"

[gavin]

I take the point about the missing center line and this will be added.The mistakes on the drawing maybe the result of the messy sketches I gave to brent to work off.Bruce is correct about how close the holes can be to the block edge.On the trial plate I have tapped some holes and tacked studs in them.If I remember rightly its on the two chev holes that need to be spaced out further.As for spacing the flex plate you do not need to as the 1/4"plate just makes up for the shorter early block.You do need the center crank hole spaced for the late flex plate hole but that's a minor job.I will post again on Saturday.

[gavin]

The first pic is as the plate came from the laser cutter at $27 I don't think id make one from scratch the engine plate might be a bit dearer.The second pic shows blocks of 3/8" welded to the plate and also dowell and stud welding.If you weld the blocks on first you can drill and tap through plate and get 5/8" of thread.You can see were the plate has been cut to allow for the convex area around the crank.We will fix this on the revised drw.

[gavin]

The first pic shows the dowels welded in and the studs for the chev trans that have to be moved.The 2nd shot is just a another angle ignore the 1/8" holes around starter that was another experiment.The next shot is the plate on the block and you can see were the c/sunk holes don't quiet line up with the holes in the block. The last shot is a power glide case placed on the plate after the offending studs were removed. The reason a P/G and chev starter were used is that I did not have a pontiac trans and starter sitting round.In the next few days I will bolt it all together see how it looks With the late flex plate and spacer. The pontiac starter version of the plate just has a bigger starter hole.

[BruceWilkie]

Laser cut sure beats my "garage method" ! (Drill press, Plasma cutter, Cut off discs, Die grinder, and final close tolerance "cuts" with a short carbide rotary file chucked up in a router!)

I dont see a pilot plate(spacer) for your starter. Without one the pinion will over engage the ring gear. Tom W's original print shows 7/16 thickness. With the 55-60 block already 1/4" "back" from flex plate it would suggest 3/16" should be correct dimension. I used 1/4" and have adequate engagement and clearance between pinion and flexplate when the starter is disengaged. If I find time this weekend I want to measure for any possible difference in pinion travel between 55-60 Pontiac nose I initially used and a chev 6 nose I have. They could be different as could a 61-64 Pontiac starter.

BTW I had a crank and bearings(light grease for lube) in the block and block on wooden blocks nose down for quite a bit of fitting my starter. Also before drilling BOP pattern I used a BOP bell housing and zero'd run out with housing clamped then drilled enough to mark my "BOP"/Chevy dowel holes. The 5/8" drill bit (mine) actually measured slightly under 5/8 and "felt" near near zero clearance in bell housing hole. With plate off and final drilled on drill press 5/8 rod was a very snug fit to plate and t400 dowel holes.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by gavin

The first pic shows the dowels welded in and the studs for the chev trans that have to be moved.The 2nd shot is just a another angle ignore the 1/8" holes around starter that was another experiment.The next shot is the plate on the block and you can see were the c/sunk holes don't quiet line up with the holes in the block. The last shot is a power glide case placed on the plate after the offending studs were removed. The reason a P/G and chev starter were used is that I did not have a pontiac trans and starter sitting round.In the next few days I will bolt it all together see how it looks With the late flex plate and spacer. The pontiac starter version of the plate just has a bigger starter hole.

Thank You for all the pictures . it helped see it better to understand how the plate is oriented . Is it possible for you to get a picture of the transmission motor plate and motor all bolted together ?

Thanks again...

[gavin]

I will bolt it together on monday and see how it looks .It will be interesting to see how the starter meshes with the ring gear.As the the block is shorter than the later blocks we might get away without a spacer.But as bruce earlier noted the starter center might need moving a wee bit.All will become clear as it goes together I just need to put a starter together and we will see.Charlie66 I will post more pics.

[BruceWilkie]

Gavin I did some starter nose comparisons along with starter drives last night and you may get lucky if the combination is right.

The chev 6 mount face is same distance from field body of starter as a "modern" Pontiac starter is at edge of modern block.

However its more likely you'll either have insufficient disengaged clearance and/or engagement incorrect depth. With differing drive lengths its hard for me to say. I don't have a complete chev 6 starter.

Some searching for parts the starter drive for a 58 is a different number(and starter) than a 59 or 60. The 61 -64 big car starter drive and starter are different, 65-up uses yet another starter drive and starter. The chev 6 starter drive also has its own starter drive.

I didn't search but know that there are also different armature shaft lengths and drive stops on them could also be located differently. Big can of worms if one wanted to build a custom starter.

I tried to post pics from phone but need to load to PC and edit them. I'll post them later..

The SAFE bet is use a 61-64 big car starter and use a 3/16" pilot plate (vs 7/16" used to adapt t400 to 61--64 big car starter) (3/16 because 55-60 block is 1/4" difference)

Hard to find a new or reman 61-64 big car Delco.

Butler(and others) sell a mini starter from IMI that is specific to the 61-64 big car app.

Anything else and bolt pattern and pilot plate depth, engage/disengage clearance can be affected.

BTW I checked thickness of pilot plate I used to fit the 58 starter and its 5/16" not 1/4".
It works but upper bolt or stud goes into solenoid portion of starter nose casting. This puts bolt or nut in a tight spot under bell and near impossible to install/remove a bolt with trans in place. Using a stud on starter with a nut isn't much better but can remove/install nut with trans on if very slow and tight process doesn't bother you lol. Like I've said it worked and spun the crank etc., its just not best choice and bolt pattern is different than 61-64. I was just trying to use what I had.
(I also have unknown app old delco starter that would need 11/16" pilot plate and it would put solenoid at about 4:00 position. Would clear my pan kick out but probably create a clearance issue elsewhere. Not knowing its original app was enough to shy me away!)

[gavin]

I am about to go out for the day but just a few quick notes.I have put a starter together and assembled all the bits. The pictures show it bolts up well but the starter does not engage by enough maybe 1/8" short. And as you said it needs moving inboard as my center was slightly out not much but enough to chew the ends of the gear up.Pic detail is not great but maybe ok to see.Will get back to it later.may put a narrower spacer on end of pinion to see if it will come out more.Over all I believe it will work with minor mods.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by gavin

I am about to go out for the day but just a few quick notes.I have put a starter together and assembled all the bits. The pictures show it bolts up well but the starter does not engage by enough maybe 1/8" short. And as you said it needs moving inboard as my center was slightly out not much but enough to chew the ends of the gear up.Pic detail is not great but maybe ok to see.Will get back to it later.may put a narrower spacer on end of pinion to see if it will come out more.Over all I believe it will work with minor mods.

Thanks for your efforts Gavin. Remove solenoid and hand actuate to check clearance next time lol.

I thought I was going to post pics but my pc isnt cooperating with my phone. Guess I'll have to e-mail them to myself and download them that way. Fwiw the 65-up Pontiac starter drive is about 1/4" longer than the 58 Pontiac starter drive. Pinion gear length is the main difference.

Of all the used drives I have, the wear pattern pretty much ends @ 1/8" before drive would bottom against ring gear.

I'll see if the 6 cylinder starter nose fits a 65-up Pontiac starter and drive and compare to a spare(assembled) 65 up Pontiac starter and the assembled 58 starter I have. Maybe swap the 6 nose on the 58 and see what changes.

Just realized I had an old neighbor(950 miles away) who has an auto electric rebuild service. Google says he's still at it. He just may have some answers. (or maybe enough pieces to build a 61-64 starter) I'll call him this week for sure.

[gavin]

Im am not too worried about the chev six starter idea I can come back to it later.What I was really interested in was the hole center placement and that is whats important.Both you and tom come to a similar figure so if I change it to 7.352 it will be close.Is the Wilhite drw correct on the pilot plate hole angles ect? It would seem from from your info that the 61-64 pilot plate needs to be 3/16" thick to work on the shorter 55-60 blocks.Its quiet easy to add the wihite info to the drw if makes the plate better.thoughts please?