[mysticmissle]

i agree, my experience with early forged rods was fine. it was short and not more than 430 hp or so. i also never hurt a cast rod motor that ran in the deep 10s at less then 5800 rpm. I did blow an eagle rod to smithereens trying to make a 12 second combo run 11s. in an rpm the motor wasn't set up for, even though it had decent rods. I believe the main spun, starved the rod(s), popped a rod bolt. snapped the rod in the middle, rotating rod section took out a nice 455 block. oddly there was no big kaboom, just a decent bang and then mostly silence as car rolled to a stop. friction and lack of oil are not to be messed with

[steve25]

You can’t just gloss over the G load factor a rod had to deal with as the stroke increases.

A perfect factory 55 to 62 ( non SD ) forged rod heat treated to 32 might live for a full 4 seasons of drag racing at 6500 with a 4.00” stroke swinging it from stop to start, yet fail just in just 5 passes down the 1/4 mile with a 4.210” stroke.

[GOAT8U2]

Gavin, I don't you mentioned who did the vacuum heat treating, you personally or did you send it to a company?

Which company?

If you sent out, what do they charge per rod?

Heat treatment to remove some austenite, then cryo to strengthen even further might be the best solution if you wanna run the older rods.

[locomotivebreath]

Where would you have a set re hardened ?

[carbking]

Some 30 years ago, I sent 3 sets to a well-known shop that shall remain anonymous in this thread.

I also sent a crankshaft, flywheel and clutch assembly for balance work.

According to the shop foreman, rods came back at C31 (I got one complete set from 3). They haven't failed yet. But 2 complete sets were destroyed getting one final set.

When I asked about redline, his answer (not going to mention here) elicited a "not with my feet in the car" response from me.

So far, quite happy.

And no, I won't name the shop, as they don't to my knowledge generally do work outside their own; but the shop owner owed me a favor.

Jon

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by carbking

Some 30 years ago, I sent 3 sets to a well-known shop that shall remain anonymous in this thread.

I also sent a crankshaft, flywheel and clutch assembly for balance work.

According to the shop foreman, rods came back at C31 (I got one complete set from 3). They haven't failed yet. But 2 complete sets were destroyed getting one final set.

When I asked about redline, his answer (not going to mention here) elicited a "not with my feet in the car" response from me.

So far, quite happy.

And no, I won't name the shop, as they don't to my knowledge generally do work outside their own; but the shop owner owed me a favor.

Jon

Hi Jon, was the issue that required 3 sets of connecting rods to find the correct procedures or treatment process, or was it from finding 2 extra sets of parts that were inferior and did not work?

[carbking]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Hi Jon, was the issue that required 3 sets of connecting rods to find the correct procedures or treatment process, or was it from finding 2 extra sets of parts that were inferior and did not work?

I had three sets and only needed one; I don't know, nor do I care, what they did with the others.

Jon

[Formulajones]

I went through similar as Jay but only 2 sets of factory rods just to get 8 good ones, and that was 25 years ago so I don't know what you guys are doing now or even why as it just gets more difficult as time goes. I don't bother with factory rods on builds today even for mild stuff it just doesn't make financial sense, especially when the rest of the build is so expensive today.

[GTO-relic]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I went through similar as Jay but only 2 sets of factory rods just to get 8 good ones, and that was 25 years ago so I don't know what you guys are doing now or even why as it just gets more difficult as time goes. I don't bother with factory rods on builds today even for mild stuff it just doesn't make financial sense, especially when the rest of the build is so expensive today.

If you're not going to use the factory forgings, the only other acceptable rods are vintage aftermarket like Crower Sportman, or buy new Carillo, Oliver rods.
Not the Chinese Dollar General stuff.

[GTO-relic]

Fireball Roberts set the pole for the 1963 Daytona 500 at a speed of 160.943 mph. This marked his third consecutive pole position at Daytona with a Pontiac.
The average speed for the 1963 Daytona 500 was 151.556 mph.
Pontiac 421 equipped cars finished 7th and 8th, ahead of Smokey Yunick's 9th place 427 Mystery Motor equipped car, who had defected from Pontiac to Chevy that year.
500 mile NASCAR race with average speed of 151mph, is a 3-1/2 hour race.
Using factory forged GM SD421 rods.
That requires sustained 6300rpm engine speeds for 3.5 hours.

Vintage forged, heat treated, USA-made connecting rods are not weak.

The SD455 rod is even stronger.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by GTO-relic

Fireball Roberts set the pole for the 1963 Daytona 500 at a speed of 160.943 mph. This marked his third consecutive pole position at Daytona with a Pontiac.
The average speed for the 1963 Daytona 500 was 151.556 mph.
Pontiac 421 equipped cars finished 7th and 8th, ahead of Smokey Yunick's 9th place 427 Mystery Motor equipped car, who had defected from Pontiac to Chevy that year.
500 mile NASCAR race with average speed of 151mph, is a 3-1/2 hour race.
Using factory forged GM SD421 rods.
That requires sustained 6300rpm engine speeds for 3.5 hours.

Vintage forged, heat treated, USA-made connecting rods are not weak.

The SD455 rod is even stronger.

There is a big difference between rubber rods and early SD rods. The Sd rods had a noticeable ring to them when tapped together. Rubber rods did not because the steel was not as good. Even with better steel the beams are spindly.
SD 455 rods are "OK" but if Jim Butler himself tells me that those rods can break just looking at them sideways (he did) that tells you a lot.
No sense in living in the past. Hard to even find rubber rods anymore.
Its a fact that generic H beams are stronger (when checked out, just good cores) than any OEM Pontiac rod.

[GTO-relic]

Like Robert Plant always says, there's no escaping our roots.

[steve25]

Well we are always using the term RPM in this discussion so I have always thought we need to ask this.

Factory 58 to 62 production forged rods.

We rework them get them a tad stronger and let’s say run them in a 1/4 mile motor that runs 11 flat and see’s 6200 rpm at the shift points.
And we are not even looking at average numbers .

Now the motor has not spun around for 60 seconds, in terms of that 11 flat pass, so how many revolutions has it really turned ?

Hint, the number is pretty low!

[GTO-relic]

1963 Tempest
SD421 rods
Beat everyone

A 1963 Pontiac Tempest Super Duty (often referred to as a LeMans) driven by Paul Goldsmith won the 1963 Daytona "American Challenge Cup" race. The race was held on a rainy February 16, 1963, and Goldsmith dominated, leading every lap and beating other sports cars like the Ferrari GTO, which he lapped eight times.

[Skip Fix]

Barney Moravitz in San Antonio used to race Pontiacs in Stock and or SS. He had a company that did oil well tools that hardened them for his machine shop. I think he was even the source for Butler for those way back before we had decent Pontiac forged rods other than Carillo or Crowers. He was older than me so not sure he is still around. I got a set I sent to him. Had them treated(even billed me vs paying up front!) He also had the lighter piston pins that Butler had that fit stock rods/pistons-but they were about 0.001 larger.

[GTO-relic]

8 of these

[steve25]

I think it was 68 1/2 with the RA2 round port 400s.

If you look close at the two rods you will see that on the late rod the outer I beam section is thicker and it’ ends square and not rounded .

A smidge more weight, but worth it for strength.

Federal Mogul up into the early 90s use to sell reconditioned forged rods as seen here.

[sdbob]

Interesting about Federal Mogul didnt know that. I have 16 rubber rods I spent rainy Saturdays taking out of early 60s Pontiac engines in the late 60s. I had a 65 421 I rebuilt about 1970. Resized the rods, cast pistons,valve job. Ran that engine approximately 6 yrs. Took it to 5800 many times. When I pulled it apart to use the block. I noticed for the first time, the engine had 7 of the wide flange rods and 1 cast rod.The engine when I bought it out of a wrecked 2+2 seemed original, it had about 60 k when I bought
it. I still have those rods and pistons in a box

[GTO-relic]

Originally Posted by sdbob

Interesting about Federal Mogul didnt know that. I have 16 rubber rods I spent rainy Saturdays taking out of early 60s Pontiac engines in the late 60s. I had a 65 421 I rebuilt about 1970. Resized the rods, cast pistons,valve job. Ran that engine approximately 6 yrs. Took it to 5800 many times. When I pulled it apart to use the block. I noticed for the first time, the engine had 7 of the wide flange rods and 1 cast rod.The engine when I bought it out of a wrecked 2+2 seemed original, it had about 60 k when I bought
it. I still have those rods and pistons in a box

it's all in the heat treat. requires the skills or tutelage of an educated metallurgist. they cut the parts up, polish them, look at the grain structure under a microscope. then adjust/modify the heat treat process to get the grain structure needed for the strength required. so you take a little piece of the cut up rod, heat treat it in a small oven the size of a microwave, and then hardness test, polish/grain size cert it WITH PICTURES of the grain size. the camera is built into the microscope. until it's right. then you stick to that formula for the big run of parts, where the oven is loaded with a fork lift, with a big overhead garage door, and the quench tank is as big as a swimming pool. it's a whole different ball game. I did it for years in jet aircraft engine production of parts. the cutting, polishing, heat treat, loading/unloading the big oven, in the lab and out in the shop.
those rods you used were simply forged and not heat treated to save cost. on the early short stroke Pontiac engines 1955-58 they'd survive. they were marginal for a 389 w/3.75" stroke. they were too weak for a 421 with 4" stroke. that's why the SD421 went to it's own heat treated forged rod and won Daytona with it a few times. the 421 HO rod was a cheaper non-heat treated part to save money on street cars and blew up in their face. then they came out with cast rods across the board that were strong enough under 6000 rpm for the strokes used...but barely for the 428/455.
the reason Pontiac went to a cast rod, is they could made a stronger cast part in huge quantities, that was much cheaper to make than a non-heat treated forged part, and much cheaper than a heat treated forged part.
it was common approach back in the 1970's if you built an engine using factory GM, Ford, Mopar, AMC rods, to hardness test the rod top/bottom/center, and discard any rods that tested soft, and use the 8 best ones out of what you had or could get. we should all still be doing it NOW, no matter what forged rods are used.
the problem is, if you're buying CHINESE rods, you're trusting THEM on another continent, to do all the above competently, in your best interests. good luck there. that is a risky proposition. Chinese basically hate Americans and are an inch away from going to war with us in the South China Sea right now. are they checking every single rod for correct hardness on a Rockwell tester ? lol !!
#2, Pontiacs are all about the nostalgia now, let's face it technology has advanced, there's new engines out now make Pontiac V8 seem like a Model T. If we're always pushing the latest greatest, watch what you as for, cuz the then the electric car makes the gasoline V8 totally obsolete, and you have no Pontiacs at all.
if the HOBBY becomes drag meets and car shows with rows of cars with Speedmaster Chinese engines carb to oil pan, and Chinese sheetmetal, then it's all over but for the cryin'.... it becomes the silver dime, quarter, half dollar, dollar that no longer had any silver in it after 1964- totally irrelevant.
I'd put more confidence in what I can make and get done here myself, than what someone in China can make for me. The dollar store approach to engine building is not my cup of tea.

[GTO-relic]

Angeles/McCarthy SuperStock launched at 4500 rpm, went through traps at 7100 rpm,with 5.38 rear gears in a 12-bolt.

Pics- launch, through traps, rear gear ratio
With heat treated 58-62 rods

Show of hands, who's running 5.38 gears, turning 7100 rpm here ? I have 4.88 gears and hit 7100 ....once

They did it 100's, maybe 1000's of times