[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by GTO Dan

Pontiac Dude

That mod allowed you to use a 455 crank in a 400 block, turn crank to 3.000" mains, use an Olds bearing and add shims to take clearance.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

If someone made a Pontiac block that was longer, the length of a BBC and Tiger style heads were made to fit, I would call it a Pontiac race block. Even if it used a BBC crank.
Not into the idea of a BBC style head on it either. We already have that with the Warp and I dont care for them.
I understand it still would not be quite the BBC level, but dont care. Might as well use a BBC at that point.
A big ol Tiger style head would have tons of flow and more room to do things. It would be great beating them with inline heads and watching them scratch their own heads.

Let's forget about Pontiacs for a minute and just look at engine design. This can be debated, but hard to argue with years of results. A given bore size can only handle so much valve size. A certain valve size will only flow so much air. Increasing bore size allows you to increase valve size hence airflow. That allows you to increase CSA and make more HP.

Using the Mopar wedge platform for discussion, these engines have tall decks 10.725", bore space is 4.800". The OEM stroke on a 440ci is 3.750". Indy Cylinder head has spent a great deal of time developing bigger cubic inch and cylinder heads to make more power. For just under $40,000, you can purchase a 1350HP, expanded bore space engine with non wedge Predator canted valve design, 655ci that makes less than 2.10 hp to ci. That engine is the highest HP engine Indy sells.

Indy's most popular designs are Hemi / Wedge combinations targeted at the Nostalgia market making less than 1350 HP.

Not quite sure the Pontiac market is ready for $40,000 engines to become the norm used in bracket racing.


Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

Let's forget about Pontiacs for a minute and just look at engine design. This can be debated, but hard to argue with years of results. A given bore size can only handle so much valve size. A certain valve size will only flow so much air. Increasing bore size allows you to increase valve size hence airflow. That allows you to increase CSA and make more HP.

Using the Mopar wedge platform for discussion, these engines have tall decks 10.725", bore space is 4.800". The OEM stroke on a 440ci is 3.750". Indy Cylinder head has spent a great deal of time developing bigger cubic inch and cylinder heads to make more power. For just under $40,000, you can purchase a 1350HP, expanded bore space engine with non wedge Predator canted valve design, 655ci that makes less than 2.10 hp to ci. That engine is the highest HP engine Indy sells.

Indy's most popular designs are Hemi / Wedge combinations targeted at the Nostalgia market making less than 1350 HP.

Not quite sure the Pontiac market is ready for $40,000 engines to become the norm used in bracket racing.


Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Take a 0 off the 40 for Pontiac racers!!

[opeliac]

Turbos will fix all of the current complaints...

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by chiefbigb

Why don't you make this block? I'm certain All Pontiac could put you in touch with the people that could do it. This reminds me of the people wanting a 2000.00 dollar replacment block because the others available are to expensive. Race sruff is expensive. Pontiac race stuff is more expensive. Pontiac had pro stock heads on BBC engines years ago. Was that a Pontiac engine? Based on some people's opinions I would say yes. So get one of those and retro valve covers and front cover. Walla basest pontiac engine around. The next level is different for everyone's programs. If you need a one off block to get there then move that direction. Very few people would purchase these parts. It's not cost effective from a.business stand point.

If you are talking about that BBC engine with the "Chief' heads with a Pontiac part number on them, I hated that engine. They were better heads than the Chevy BBC heads at the time. I know someone who had a 86 Pro Stock Bird with that engine.
Car is still around here, VERY light.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by opeliac

Turbos will fix all of the current complaints...

How about a DOHC hemi head made to work with our current blocks or a short deck version ?
Its not like the SOHC hemi head is not in our heritage, take it one step(and 2 valves) further. Early designs were made in 1970 and chevy nixed the idea. It became the Cadillac Northstar V8. They had problems in the end.
But the 1970 Pontiac engine used a RAV crank so it must have had the same bore spacing.
Could it be done with our current aftermarket blocks ?
4 valves per hole is a giant leap. Not even in the same conversation as 2 valves.
It would be a larger version of my Tundra V8. I believe it the largest of the currently available DOHC V8 hemis. Its a awesome engine.

[opeliac]

People need to look around and pay attention to what is fast...If you want to run fast with a N/A combo, you'll be locked in at a certain max hp number, yet there are some damn fast N/A Pontiacs out there running regularly...If you want to go fast fast, then you need to look at going the turbo route...Big Chief has proven that its very doable with relatively simple stuff...There is absolutely no reason for a bigger bore space, unless you are building a nitrous pro mod or just feel that you need to make 1500HP naturally aspirated...

[S/st 54]

Originally Posted by opeliac

Turbos will fix all of the current complaints...

I love that idea for Super Class racing!!! !!!!!!

That is the car I WANT in round 1 of every race for the next 6 YEARS!!!

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by S/st 54

I love that idea for Super Class racing!!! !!!!!!

That is the car I WANT in round 1 of every race for the next 6 YEARS!!!

Super class racing doesnt need the HP of a turbo combo to be competitive...Unless there is a new super class that i'm not familiar with...Surely you arent talking about Super Street, or Super Gas, are you?

[S/st 54]

Originally Posted by opeliac

Super class racing doesnt need the HP of a turbo combo to be competitive...Unless there is a new super class that i'm not familiar with...Surely you arent talking about Super Street, or Super Gas, are you?

Sure was.......
It's kinda funny I've won $40 off of a couple threads already....Mention bigger cubic inches and someone says short deck motor.....or use turbos...
In the super classes a lot of guys are exceeding the 1100-1300hp range naturally aspirated...I mean think about the number of guys that are making that much hp nationwide in all 3 super classes for a second maybe 3000 people are running motors in that range....
Now,how many Pontiac motors are out there right now just making 1000hp NA? Heads up/bracket racing I'm curious to that answer or perception.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by S/st 54

Sure was.......
It's kinda funny I've won $40 off of a couple threads already....Mention bigger cubic inches and someone says short deck motor.....or use turbos...
In the super classes a lot of guys are exceeding the 1100-1300hp range naturally aspirated...I mean think about the number of guys that are making that much hp nationwide in all 3 super classes for a second maybe 3000 people are running motors in that range....
Now,how many Pontiac motors are out there right now just making 1000hp NA? Heads up/bracket racing I'm curious to that answer or perception.

IMO, its completely stupid to run a 1100-1300HP combo in Super Street or Super gas...Build a 2400lb car, run a lower HP, lower maintenance combo...

As for your question about the number of high HP Pontiacs in these classes, I have no idea...I'd say there isnt a very high ratio though, just like there arent very many Oldsmobiles, Buicks, or AMCs...

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by opeliac

IMO, its completely stupid to run a 1100-1300HP combo in Super Street or Super gas...Build a 2400lb car, run a lower HP, lower maintenance combo...

As for your question about the number of high HP Pontiacs in these classes, I have no idea...I'd say there isnt a very high ratio though, just like there arent very many Oldsmobiles, Buicks, or AMCs...

I don't believe thare are that many High HP combos running a bracket class, even NHRA Super classes. If I remember correctly, NHRA Super Street has a minimum weight of 2800lbs, Super Gas is 2100lbs. We can't compete with 600ci engines in that class, but we can still build a reliable 540ci that should be able to get the job done with a target MPH of 150+.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[S/st 54]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I don't believe thare are that many High HP combos running a bracket class, even NHRA Super classes. If I remember correctly, NHRA Super Street has a minimum weight of 2800lbs, Super Gas is 2100lbs. We can't compete with 600ci engines in that class, but we can still build a reliable 540ci that should be able to get the job done with a target MPH of 150+.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

150+ in Street yep I agree your advice HAS just about done that...149.88 is close enough we are among friends...

I'll go out on a limb and say with those higher hp levels it's more of a challenge to get the car to repeat than it is to build a 1000hp Pontiac.....I'm sure the guys that have done super class racing might agree with me on that.....it's a whole lot more than plugging numbers in a box...

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I don't believe thare are that many High HP combos running a bracket class, even NHRA Super classes. If I remember correctly, NHRA Super Street has a minimum weight of 2800lbs, Super Gas is 2100lbs. We can't compete with 600ci engines in that class, but we can still build a reliable 540ci that should be able to get the job done with a target MPH of 150+.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

The bottom line is, you can compete in Super Gas, and Super Street with a N/A Pontiac using currently available parts.

[S/st 54]

Originally Posted by opeliac

The bottom line is, you can compete in Super Gas, and Super Street with a N/A Pontiac using currently available parts.

I believe you! Considering I was the last to dang near win a championship with a Pontiac in a Super class.....but just think...if a "premier head porter"in the Pontiac Community called my car "slow" going 160+ with a bbc......I can only imagine what his perception is when I was going 147ish with a Pontiac.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by S/st 54

I believe you! Considering I was the last to dang near win a championship with a Pontiac in a Super class.....but just think...if a "premier head porter"in the Pontiac Community called my car "slow" going 160+ with a bbc......I can only imagine what his perception is when I was going 147ish with a Pontiac.

I know you've picked up a ton since switching to the BBC, how much MPH did you gain in the back 1/2 with the Pontiac engine as compared to the current engine?

I'm guessing you picked up 29-30 MPH with the old motor?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[S/st 54]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I know you've picked up a ton since switching to the BBC, how much MPH did you gain in the back 1/2 with the Pontiac engine as compared to the current engine?

I'm guessing you picked up 29-30 MPH with the old motor?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

These are a comparison with the same intake being used with the throttle stop 10.90 racing....
Pontiac motor with head porter A's head I picked up 33 mph in the back half...
Pontiac Motor with your Fusion ported heads picked up 35MPH in the back half...



With the BBC I'm picking up about 45ish mph on the back half.

[Dave Polichena]

Originally Posted by S/st 54

With the BBC I'm picking up about 45ish mph on the back half.

That must be fun running down a 125 mph car

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by S/st 54

I believe you! Considering I was the last to dang near win a championship with a Pontiac in a Super class.....but just think...if a "premier head porter"in the Pontiac Community called my car "slow" going 160+ with a bbc......I can only imagine what his perception is when I was going 147ish with a Pontiac.

Why did you switch to the BBC?

[Ken MacNicol]

Originally Posted by Dave Polichena

That must be fun running down a 125 mph car

Don't be picking on us slow guys