[78w72]

bummer to hear the tick is still there... sounds like it wasnt the 703 cam afterall, even though you found a bad lobe.

sounds like you did the break in the best you could, but the oil may not have been the best choice although probably fine. for break in i always use a quality 10/30 or 10/40 with high zddp, plus a bottle of cam break in additive like from comp or the lucas cam break in is good too. straight 50w is probably too thick, most usually use a straight 30 for a single weight.

but the lucas is intended to be an oil additive, not for coating the cam/lifters initially, the cam should be coated with a real cam break in paste you brush on the lobes & lifter bottoms, not just pour stp on it. hopefully the break in was ok.

im curious what the howards lifters say for pre load? some lifters say to do 1/2 turn past zero lash, some say 1 full turn & other "fast pump" lifters say 1/4 turn... just adding 1 3/4 turns isnt a good idea if the lifters dont call for that much preload.

this is a long thread that got very side tracked but there are some good points made by people trying to help trouble shoot the tick... hope you can get it figured out.

[glhs#116]

The Lucas is a breakin paste that Crower includes in the box. It’s a paste

Sam

[Cliff R]

In theory the amount of pre-load really shouldn't matter as long as you have some between zero and plungers completely bottomed out.

This assumes correct clearances between the plungers and lifter bodies and leak down rates within specs.

In the real World theory doesn't always make the grade with some of these things.

What I do here is to determine the amount of travel in the plungers, which can and will vary depending on who made the lifters.

If you have .075" of plunger travel, for example, simply adjust the locknuts down to put the plungers in the middle of their travel. If that takes one full turn then set all the plungers down one full turn from zero and you are done with lifter pre-load adjustments.

In recent years we've been using Rhoads lifters, and most recently the V-Max version. They are very short travel, and we adjust them up from bottomed out very precisely with a feeler gauge.

An alternate method is to bottom them out when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam and back them off the same number of turns.

If you are adjusting standard type lifters with the valve covers off and engine idling, back them up until you hear a slight clicking sound, down till they just shut-up, then one more full turn.

Some builders go 1/4 turn, others 1/2 turn, or something in between all that. It really shouldn't matter as long as you have some pre-load established and they are all pretty even, but we've found that running many of these "modern" production hydraulic lifters will result in a "ticker" or two in the bunch unless you put the plungers pretty deep in them.

Many modern lobe profiles will also produce some valve train noise often associated with problem lifters simply due to the opening/closing ramp velocities. That noise hurts nothing and just a by-product of the design. Same deal with standard type Rhoad lifters. They offer a lot of travel and if you set them down 1/4-1/2 turn from zero lash you are likely going to get some valve train clatter when the engine is fully heat soaked and oil thinned out some. My first 455 had them in it, and it was a little noisy fully warmed out and heat soaked, but nothing you'd really pay much attention to. I also ran that cam and lifters for quite a while, and when they were removed there was no measurable wear on the lobes and they were smooth and highly polished as were the bottoms of the lifters. I gave them away to a customer who was visiting the shop. He installed them into a RAIV 400 build and far as I know it's still out there running just fine today.......Cliff

[78w72]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

The Lucas is a breakin paste that Crower includes in the box. It’s a paste

Sam

ok wasnt sure what it was, you just said lucas lube. figured it was the bottle of zddp additive that you can add a portion of to boost the zddp or a whole bottle as a oil additive for cam break in. wasnt aware they made a paste.

either way, best of luck on figuring out the tick.

[HWYSTR455]

Wow, bummer. Couple things that I'm not clear on, so going to ask. You say you started with 1 full turn of preload, and then after that you added another 1 3/4 turn? So the total was 2 3/4 turns? That's way too much if that's the case. As a reference, posted this a few times, the amount of preload for each turn depending on the stud threads:

http://www.johncalliesinc.com/pdf/Ad...licLifters.pdf


b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20 threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050".
c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of the adjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125").
d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are:
1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn.
e. Use the chart below to determine how many quarter-turns to tighten the adjuster nut after Zero-lash:
Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

HFT lifters generally require @ .030-.060 preload. So, max I would think would not exceed 1 1/4 turns, roughly.

You commented:

"I adjusted the rockers with one turn preload one at a time in firing order turning the engine over by hand 90 degrees each time."

Can you explain that better please? Your process?

EDIT: Keep in mind the extract above is when using Morel HYD Roller Lifters, which call for @ a preload of .020-.025, and for an iron block, with aluminum heads, add .010-.015. So for a HFT lifter, roughly .075 is max.

.

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Wow, bummer. Couple things that I'm not clear on, so going to ask. You say you started with 1 full turn of preload, and then after that you added another 1 3/4 turn? So the total was 2 3/4 turns? That's way too much if that's the case. As a reference, posted this a few times, the amount of preload for each turn depending on the stud threads:

http://www.johncalliesinc.com/pdf/Ad...licLifters.pdf


b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20 threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050".
c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of the adjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125").
d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are:
1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn.
e. Use the chart below to determine how many quarter-turns to tighten the adjuster nut after Zero-lash:
Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

HFT lifters generally require @ .030-.060 preload. So, max I would think would not exceed 1 1/4 turns, roughly.

You commented:

"I adjusted the rockers with one turn preload one at a time in firing order turning the engine over by hand 90 degrees each time."

Can you explain that better please? Your process?

EDIT: Keep in mind the extract above is when using Morel HYD Roller Lifters, which call for @ a preload of .020-.025, and for an iron block, with aluminum heads, add .010-.015. So for a HFT lifter, roughly .075 is max.

.

I will certainly revisit the preload but none of them were bottomed out and the car runs and drives normally.

As far as the sequence, it's one Cliff posted somewhere. If you are at compression TDC for #1 then both its rockers are at base circle on the cam. You can adjust those. Then rotate engine 90 degrees and do the same for the next cylinder in the firing sequence. In two full rotations you have done all the valves on the base circles..

Sam

[Jay S]

Did you do any inspection on the rest of the valve terrain for that lobe that was getting rounded? Guessing you did. Curious if there could have been a cause and effect relationship going on there somewhere. tick wiped the lobe versus the rough cam break-in.

Not trying to second guess you. I know you have searched high and low for this noise.

[dmac]

You replied earlier that you had checked for exhaust leaks. I would be interested in how to do that. I had one that I couldn't figure where it was coming from. but knew which side.

[64speed]

Originally Posted by dmac

You replied earlier that you had checked for exhaust leaks. I would be interested in how to do that. I had one that I couldn't figure where it was coming from. but knew which side.

I have always done this with a mechanics stethoscope. I am hard of hearing and it’s really hard to do sometimes but it’s the best method I have found. I saw a YouTube video of a guy wrapping each header tube loosely with a shop rag and looking for the rag to flap like it was getting blown on but I know something like that would never work for me. Probably start a fire with my luck.

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Did you do any inspection on the rest of the valve terrain for that lobe that was getting rounded? Guessing you did. Curious if there could have been a cause and effect relationship going on there somewhere. tick wiped the lobe versus the rough cam break-in.

Not trying to second guess you. I know you have searched high and low for this noise.

Well, for my own sanity I did push each valve spring down in these heads by hand with the valve spring compressor before I first installed the heads. They all felt the same. And on this last cam swap I was careful to check each lifter in its bore. Again, all felt about the same and felt free. Not sure what else I could or could have checked.

Sam

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

I will certainly revisit the preload but none of them were bottomed out and the car runs and drives normally.

Sam

Well, therein lies a tale..

I did indeed revisit the valve lash. I backed them all out and set them at 1 1/4 preload on a slightly warmed up engine. I then decided that while the roads are quiet (it's a national holiday at the moment) to take a drive just twenty minutes on the highway just to complete cam break-in and get a feel for things.

Well, the trip down was uneventful. On the turnaround I floored it in second and it felt a bit soft. I went into third and something didn't sound right. I backed off and now I had a loud tick or rattle. I slowed down to about 50mph or so and cruised gently to the next junction. It was getting louder. I was thinking, "Crap! But at least I am finding out what it is. Feels like something bad."

I found a little turn off that used to lead to the Emir's old old palace but is now mostly unused.



I popped the bonnet and heard loud clatter from the passenger side. Shut it down. I pulled that valve cover thinking I would find a busted rocker arm or something. Everything looked fairly normal under the valve cover though. I honestly thought, God didn't bring me this far to have the car ruined on one drive after all this care. Anyway, I start wiggling and find a loose pushrod. I wondered if a cam lobe could go off that far that quickly. I tightened it down to snug which took a few turns. Then I found another. I snugged that. I ran the car briefly (making a huge mess on that side with the valve cover off) just to see if anything looked odd or felt odd on the rockers and if the sound was still there.

About this time the penny dropped. I had adjusted the valves but not locked the lock nuts! Doh! So I took off the other valve cover and in the heat of the desert day with not a hint of shade adjusted all the rockers once more to 1 1/4 turn preload and LOCKED the lock nuts and SNUGGED the nuts against the tightened lock nuts. The drive home was uneventful after that.

I still have the same tick. But otherwise the car sounds smooth and runs well except that it won't take much timing and it likes to diesel on after shutdown about half the time. It also seems to run hot a bit easier but the retarded timing is enough to explain that. I will try to find some cooler range plugs and see. The tick also goes away by 1500rpm and can't really be heard after that. Although it is pretty noticeable at idle and lower engine speeds.

Sam

[steve25]

Sam since this bad yet good event happened I would recheck the push Rods for straighness on any of the valves that loosened up on you during that drive.

In regards to the timing / hot running issue have you ever confirmed TDC on the Balancer, I can recall thru all you have posted, sorry!

In regards to the Distributor , on used ones the inner shaft that moves with the advance weights can get gummed up with age and either hang up the mechanical advance from advancing or retarding in responce to engine rpm , or just make it move a bunch slower in regards to rpm.
Has this been looked at?

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by steve25

Sam since this bad yet good event happened I would recheck the push Rods for straighness on any of the valves that loosened up on you during that drive.

In regards to the timing / hot running issue have you ever confirmed TDC on the Balancer, I can recall thru all you have posted, sorry!

In regards to the Distributor , on used ones the inner shaft that moves with the advance weights can get gummed up with age and either hang up the mechanical advance from advancing or retarding in responce to engine rpm , or just make it move a bunch slower in regards to rpm.
Has this been looked at?

I'm sure the balancer is right because I just did a cam change. It's also a fairly recent SFI approved balancer that I installed just about a year and a half ago. It's nice, with numbers all around it including 90º, 180º, 270º..

I really doubt the pushrods are bent. The rockers weren't that far backed out and they are very stout Crower pushrods: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cro-69930r-16

Sam

[steve25]

Ok cool!

[TAQuest]

"About this time the penny dropped. I had adjusted the valves but not locked the lock nuts! Doh!"

Nice looking car. No doubt white is the color to have in Doh(a).

[Murf]

Sam, I may have missed it but do you adjust the valves with the motor running? I have always had better luck that way. If you have a spare valve cover to cut up, it isn’t even too messy.

Good luck!
Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

While your in there, take each rocker and check for a problem...rough spot in each pivot and roller tip.
You really want to check for lifters to be loose in their bore... as well as tight.

You can check for excessive bleed down on each lifter by leaning on the pushrod end of the rocker @ idle (a hammer handle works nicely) , being that the valvetrain noise goes away with increased RPM...(oil pressure), I believe this is where the noise is sourcing from. You got an oil mess already to clean up.

What rear gear does your car have?
Is the noise there when the engine is cold??

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by Murf

Sam, I may have missed it but do you adjust the valves with the motor running? I have always had better luck that way. If you have a spare valve cover to cut up, it isn’t even too messy.

Good luck!
Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have adjusted with the motor running in winter. Even on cold start, though, in this heat the oil gets launched everywhere.

For my roadside adjustment I did my lazy method:
1. Back off all nuts
2. Loosen the lock screw another turn
3. Remove power wire from distributor
4. Cinch all nuts to barely finger tip tight
5. Crank engine for a second
6. Finger tip tighten the nuts that are now loose
7. Repeat. I like to repeat about seven times

You will get to the point soon where there is no slack to take up on any nuts. Then add your preload to all. Then tighten the lock screws. Then snug the nut to the lock screw. It is vital that you only finger tip tighten so you don’t keep adding preload. Basically just to where the nut stops and no more.

Sam

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

While your in there, take each rocker and check for a problem...rough spot in each pivot and roller tip.
You really want to check for lifters to be loose in their bore... as well as tight.

You can check for excessive bleed down on each lifter by leaning on the pushrod end of the rocker @ idle (a hammer handle works nicely) , being that the valvetrain noise goes away with increased RPM...(oil pressure), I believe this is where the noise is sourcing from. You got an oil mess already to clean up.

What rear gear does your car have?
Is the noise there when the engine is cold??

Lifters are all good slip fit in their bores. None sticky or loose. The noise isn’t there on a cold start until a minute or so runtime (warmup is quick in this climate). Rear is a 3.42 and converter is fairly tight which is how I want it. I am also kind of wondering if one of the rockers isn’t noisy. They all feel nice and free in the hand. But the other thing that is true about when I put in the double springs and the tick went away is that the valve tip was below the retainer and the rocker arms either side of the roller tip axles were contacting the retainers lightly. It might have been this unloading of the roller tip rather than the actual spring change that made the tick go away before. I will get some 1.65 rockers when I can afford them and see what happens. These heads look like they have the pushrod clearance for it..

Sam

[TAQuest]

Sounds like a wrist pin.

An easy check is to take the plug wires off one at a time and see if it changes. In this case I would start with the one where you replaced the piston. Quick an easy.