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#61
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FormulaJones - Thank you for a detailed response, much appreciated! Would be interested in more details on the mods required for the Chevelle pan, probably more than this thread should have. (Maybe PM me)
Cold air, that too is a very good point, and guess with EFI, it would have less effect/improvement, but cold air is still an improvement. IAT readings fatten it up with colder air, hence, more power. (theoretically) I agree, functional on the 68 in discussion would be a cool/wow factor, and at a lower power build makes much more sense. Well, if you consider 525-600 a 'lower power' that is! On the #5 clearance, wasn't the factory spec bigger for #5 too? I thought for some reason it was like .0003-.0005 more than the rest, but I honestly can't recall specifically. (Wish I wasn't living out of boxes right now) .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#62
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I'll send you a pm. |
#63
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While I figure out the bearing clearance situation, I picked up on a few other things. First, I primed and painted the block, new valley pan, new Canton pan and repro front cover. A while back I found a snafu on Amazon's site and got a 6 pack of Pontiac Duplicolor 1616 for $15. Came in handy today. Next, I checked the crank endplay. I rigged up a dial indicator from my cam degree kit, I hope that's kosher. I couldn't get it on the crank snout, so I set it up against the first counterweight. Looks like I'm at .007 which is in the acceptable range. I also test fit the factory windage tray with spacers to make sure it's going to clear the crank (it will, no problem). Finally, I got familiar with the Total Seal ring pack and set up the ring filer. The instructions say to go for .012-.022 for my bore size. I looked through some old threads and it seems like the consensus is .016-.018 on the first ring and .020-.022 on the second, although Cliff mentioned he does .018 on both. I have the first one at .017 right now. Taking this first one slow and being very careful to ensure I'm filing square and not taking too much off.
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Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#64
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I have a 1971 GM service manual and a 1976 Motor manual. Both show #5 clearance the same as the rest.
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#65
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Just to say, on the ring gaps, I always cut mine to include a street/strip N2O shot, no harm in doing so, even at large gaps that 'standard', you won't have any additional or measurable blow by. Your call on that. IMO, better safe than sorry. Too little can cause way more damage.
I too believe the 2nd ring gap should be a touch larger, there again, your call. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#66
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I use a stone to treat/deburr all edges on the ring ends too.
It's ok if the rings vary slightly, .001-.003 more on any rings is not going to cause problems. Sure, try to get them all the same, but it really isn't going to make any big diff. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
The Following User Says Thank You to HWYSTR455 For This Useful Post: | ||
#67
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I did find it suprising that you install the inside taper differently for the top and bottom rings. The instructions aid it should be installed facing up on the top ring and facing down on the bottom ring (dot facing up). Quote:
I cleaned all the pistons while I was at it and found some shavings from the machining process. Good reminder to clean and check all your parts. I also installed the oil galley plug with the .040 hole for distributor gear oiling.
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Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#68
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Nice work! And yes, inspect & clean all parts!
What do the instructions say for first level of N2O? I'm guessing the gap you used was for a standard, non-spray or boost car? When rings butt, due to whatever reason, it causes damage such as broken rings, accelerated wear (rings & bore), and can hang up in the piston. There are usually 3 specs for rings in the instructions, standard, mild boost or spray, and race. Each step recommends the gap be opened up more. Some instructions are more granular, listing more than those 3 specs. (attached example pic is a Total Seal Gap sheet, but can vary between ring types) In the example gap instructions, first stage of N2O and/or boost, it calls for .0055, standard street/strip is .0045 . .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
The Following User Says Thank You to HWYSTR455 For This Useful Post: | ||
#69
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PS - Did you use any loctite on the galley plugs? Many use the sealant/locker blue or orange.
.
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#70
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How much hp are you looking to add with the NOS shot?
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I do stuff for reasons. |
#71
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I believe he is not using any N2O, but what I was suggesting is to go to the 1st level to be safe, in the even of things like det, overheating, etc, which can make the ends butt.
As I commented, there is no downside going to the next step bigger, and is a good safety padding. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#72
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Yes, I always go .001” more just to be totally safe with a NA motor, I also check the ring gap on two bores in each back at the bottom of the bore just to check for taper.
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I do stuff for reasons. |
#73
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Taper is another good reason to go bigger than just the standard gap recommendations.
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
The Following User Says Thank You to HWYSTR455 For This Useful Post: | ||
#74
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What if I split the difference with .020 on the top ring and .023 on the bottom ring? What's the logic behind the wider gap on the bottom ring? Good call on checking at the bottom of the cylinder. Just had it bored with a torque plate so it should be uniform, but I'll check. I used Loctite sealant on the plugs.
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Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#75
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Cool, loctite works, and even if it seeps a little, as long as it doesn't come out, will not see an psi change.
Really, .005 is nothing, think about gapping a plug from .030 to .035. I say just go to the next step, at least. Now that I think about it, I actually would go 2 steps above standard on my builds, because I knew I was good to a 250 shot. That last engine went over 100k hard miles, and a bunch of N2O. I sold the short block to someone on this board, and they ran it like it was for probably another 100k. That was a 400, the strokers after that I know I went at least 1 step above standard, but would have to look it up to be sure exactly how much. I do have all the blueprint info on all my engines, so know I have that info. You will not have any additional oil consumption or blow by over standard, if any, it would be so marginal you won't be able to measure it. Even at the widest gaps. Ask Butler when you call, see what they say, but bet it will be kind of vague, since there's not a lot of negative impact in going bigger than intended purpose per the manufacturer's recommendations. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#76
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True, .005 is not at lot here.
Regarding the oil rings: I know you usually don’t have to mess with them, but I want to double check the .008 gap I’m seeing with them is ok.
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Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#77
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The gaps are set wider on the second ring because that’s where most of the heat migrated to in the piston and as such that ring expands more.
__________________
I do stuff for reasons. |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 25stevem For This Useful Post: | ||
#78
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The spec is .015, if it's tighter, may want to open them up. But, I've never had to open them up before, which makes me wonder if you got a set for a diff bore. Check.
They are made of a diff material than other rings, and are 'flimsy', so grinding them may be difficult. You may want to try stacking 2 or more on top of each other when you grind them, to help prevent them from flopping around. Before you open them up, ask Butler would be my suggestion. True on the 2nd ring, but, if you are already going to a step or two over the 'standard' gap, it's ok to make them the same as the top ring. EDIT: You might be able to use vise grips with 2 popsicle sticks, put the oil ring in between the popsicle sticks and use a fine hand file. That might be easier than trying to grind them. You also might be able to stand them up on their' edge, and then use the grinder. Experiment. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#79
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The set is explicitly for a 4.17 bore so they should be right. I took an oil ring out of the bore, gently flexed it up and down a little bit, then put it back in. The gap opened up to .015, so maybe they just need some slight persuasion. Doesn't feel good doing that, but they're pretty thin rings.
Just to confirm for the compression ring gap, I'm hearing .023 on the first and .025 on the second? Interesting old post (#16) by mgarblik on ring gaps and how wider doesn't impact performance. HWYSTAR, you make an appearance in the thread too: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...79#post5554779
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Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) Last edited by Verdoro 68; 09-05-2022 at 02:48 PM. |
#80
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What's the SNAFU on the Duplicolor DE1616 paint? have you tried it again?
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1968 Firebird 400 RAII M21, 3.31 12 bolt, Mayfair Maize. 1977 Trans Am W72 400, TH350, 3.23 T Top Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't. Bill Nye. |
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