[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by Fastmonty

Bill just called me. I think we need to talk... Will DM and email you.

Mike "Fast Monty's Garage" on YouTube

Keep up the great work!

Your car would look awesome with that on it.

[JLMounce]

^^^ Seconded

[pont3]

Yes, it all looks awesome, but from a business standpoint, I'd say, say, DON'T do it. As enticing as it apears, the market just doesn't support the investment. Just being honest here. I live in St Charles, Missouri, a suburb of St Louis, and the ads are filled with people wanting the dump the traditional Pontiac engines for more modern LS engines that produce similar or more power for a fraction of the cost of building a Pontiac that produces similar power. Then there is the reliability aspect when you consider the quality of the aftermarket PONTIAC parts vs the wide variety of available LS parts.

I've been throwing loyalty, money, parts after Pontiac for over 35 years, and to this day, I still cannot keep them from dripping oil on my driveway, or expecting them to start and be reliable with today's aftermarket parts.

Additonally, I would ask, why would you spend so much money to impress at a car show? Horsepower matters in races so if you don't plan on races it amounts to wastes.

Seriously, I applaud the efforts to what seems like a very nice addition to the Pontiac faithful, but this does not address the inherent major deficiencies of the original Pontiac engine.

I have been on this site for over 23 years and the issues have been nonstop. Everything from overheating to valve lifters to whatever, you name it. Is a 12 thousand dollar supercharger going to solve all these issues, or exacerbate them. Especially when you realize that 4.8 or 5.3 with 200k miles that cost 750 dollars just handed you your ass.

Now, I realize that this thread is not where I should be announcing my viewpoint, but I feel obligated to inform the "less informed" that this extra power will come at a cost, exacerbating the problems that you are already experiencing with cooling, and while there may be solutions out there, add them to your total costs. And even those "solutions" are questionable, and can you trust them to say, drive your car cross country?

[Jack Gifford]

Duh..........

[rerunss]

Originally Posted by pont3

Yes, it all looks awesome, but from a business standpoint, I'd say, say, DON'T do it. As enticing as it apears, the market just doesn't support the investment. Just being honest here. I live in St Charles, Missouri, a suburb of St Louis, and the ads are filled with people wanting the dump the traditional Pontiac engines for more modern LS engines that produce similar or more power for a fraction of the cost of building a Pontiac that produces similar power. Then there is the reliability aspect when you consider the quality of the aftermarket PONTIAC parts vs the wide variety of available LS parts.

I've been throwing loyalty, money, parts after Pontiac for over 35 years, and to this day, I still cannot keep them from dripping oil on my driveway, or expecting them to start and be reliable with today's aftermarket parts.

Additonally, I would ask, why would you spend so much money to impress at a car show? Horsepower matters in races so if you don't plan on races it amounts to wastes.

Seriously, I applaud the efforts to what seems like a very nice addition to the Pontiac faithful, but this does not address the inherent major deficiencies of the original Pontiac engine.

I have been on this site for over 23 years and the issues have been nonstop. Everything from overheating to valve lifters to whatever, you name it. Is a 12 thousand dollar supercharger going to solve all these issues, or exacerbate them. Especially when you realize that 4.8 or 5.3 with 200k miles that cost 750 dollars just handed you your ass.

Now, I realize that this thread is not where I should be announcing my viewpoint, but I feel obligated to inform the "less informed" that this extra power will come at a cost, exacerbating the problems that you are already experiencing with cooling, and while there may be solutions out there, add them to your total costs. And even those "solutions" are questionable, and can you trust them to say, drive your car cross country?

I bet you’re a hoot to hang out with. You probably try to talk kids out of eating ice cream.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by pont3

....
I've been throwing loyalty, money, parts after Pontiac for over 35 years, and to this day, I still cannot keep them from dripping oil on my driveway, or expecting them to start and be reliable with today's aftermarket parts.

....

I have been on this site for over 23 years and the issues have been nonstop. Everything from overheating to valve lifters to whatever, you name it.

You obviously are doing something wrong if you can't get it right after 35 years. Not to mention your first post was in 2019. You've been suffering in silence while you are surround with people that can help.

If it's so easy to do it with an LS, why haven't you switched yet?

I suspect you will have many of the same issues with an LS swap, but I say put your money where your mouth is and try it. Prove your point. I'm curious to see how you make out.

I suggest going to a track and ask the guys with LS power how easy it was to get where they're at and how much they spent. Or spend some time on an LS forum. That should help you clarify your 'opinion'.


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[HWYSTR455]

Putting a supercharger kit on an LS is in the $8-$9k+ range, not including other misc items needed. Example:

https://www.texas-speed.com/p-8649-m...er-system.aspx

That should give some context. Considering extra fab etc to make it work on a Pontiac, I think the cost is very reasonable.

Hard parts for Pontiacs is a 'good' business, by using other parts from the manufacturers that supply parts as a metric. I'm sure some of those companies did considerable market research before diving in.

I remember when folks thought aluminum heads and blocks was a pipe dream. Now look at all that is available, compared to 10-15 years ago.


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[darbikrash]

Originally Posted by pont3

Yes, it all looks awesome, but from a business standpoint, I'd say, say, DON'T do it. As enticing as it apears, the market just doesn't support the investment. Just being honest here. I live in St Charles, Missouri, a suburb of St Louis, and the ads are filled with people wanting the dump the traditional Pontiac engines for more modern LS engines that produce similar or more power for a fraction of the cost of building a Pontiac that produces similar power. Then there is the reliability aspect when you consider the quality of the aftermarket PONTIAC parts vs the wide variety of available LS parts.

I've been throwing loyalty, money, parts after Pontiac for over 35 years, and to this day, I still cannot keep them from dripping oil on my driveway, or expecting them to start and be reliable with today's aftermarket parts.

Additonally, I would ask, why would you spend so much money to impress at a car show? Horsepower matters in races so if you don't plan on races it amounts to wastes.

Seriously, I applaud the efforts to what seems like a very nice addition to the Pontiac faithful, but this does not address the inherent major deficiencies of the original Pontiac engine.

I have been on this site for over 23 years and the issues have been nonstop. Everything from overheating to valve lifters to whatever, you name it. Is a 12 thousand dollar supercharger going to solve all these issues, or exacerbate them. Especially when you realize that 4.8 or 5.3 with 200k miles that cost 750 dollars just handed you your ass.

Now, I realize that this thread is not where I should be announcing my viewpoint, but I feel obligated to inform the "less informed" that this extra power will come at a cost, exacerbating the problems that you are already experiencing with cooling, and while there may be solutions out there, add them to your total costs. And even those "solutions" are questionable, and can you trust them to say, drive your car cross country?

(Properly) building an LS motor is most certainly not cheaper than building a Pontiac engine. As for comparing a $750 junkyard LS near the end of its service life against a brand new properly assembled motor of any type- this is just foolish.

Don’t get me wrong- I love LS motors and have built my fair share. And I don’t begrudge anyone who does an LS swap- that’s hot rodding.

What I set out to do is design, build and produce a modern Pontiac supercharger kit that uses an OEM quality screw blower. The Eaton blower head unit used in my kit is production approved for several GM platforms , and meets all of GM’s reliability , durability, and warranty standards as well as NVH. It is most certainly capable of “starting and acting reliably” when assembled properly.

I set out to provide a highly engineered and thoroughly tested kit that people can buy with confidence that the R&D was done, using made in the USA parts and suppliers, and yes this costs money.

It is the very best that I can do, and other than the foundry work, it is all produced in-house with no outsourcing. There is easily 6 figures in the engineering and tooling for this project- that is the cost of doing business and no single individual will determine the “market” for this, folks that want something done right will have interest, those shopping for a “good deal” at the expense of quality will not.

I did not do this to make money. I have this strange belief that there is a market, however small, that does appreciate products that are not created and marketed by middlemen and hucksters, built to the lowest common denominator, but rather do things to the very best of their ability and cater to those that appreciate this.

It is not intended for a person who is cross shopping a junkyard LS motor and adding $400 Chinese turbos “sloppy mechanic” style.

[HWYSTR455]

Well said darbikrash, your attention to detail is incredible, and have followed you since way back.

I wasn't going to go too deep on the LS comment(s), feel it's been covered well enough many times. Too many get sucked up in the LS 'propaganda', it's not easy or cheap.

Shoot, just look at the E-trans conversions, many are shy just of the fact it takes a controller, not to mention a full ECU and tuning. And GM ECUs are not very friendly.

As for properly built performance LS, one can use MAST Motorsports as a 'baseline':

https://www.mastmotorsports.com/collections/ls-engines

Keep in mind those prices are without any electronics. Or any accessories/accessory drives. TQ on most builds are in the 550-575 range, something you can do with a Pontiac stroker for half the cost. Even the 800hp supercharged engine is only 700ftlbs.

I have a number of friends who build and race late model camaros and vettes, and anything over 600hp that you want to last you have to beef the bottom ends. The money those guys pump into their' cars would make most folks on this forum blush in shock.

I've daily driven Pontiacs since the early 80s, in all kinds of weather too. I've gone all up & down the east coast, on multiple week trips, etc, and beat the crap out of them. It's rare I have an issue once I have a combo shaken out.


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[pont3]

Originally Posted by darbikrash

(Properly) building an LS motor is most certainly not cheaper than building a Pontiac engine. As for comparing a $750 junkyard LS near the end of its service life against a brand new properly assembled motor of any type- this is just foolish.

Don’t get me wrong- I love LS motors and have built my fair share. And I don’t begrudge anyone who does an LS swap- that’s hot rodding.

What I set out to do is design, build and produce a modern Pontiac supercharger kit that uses an OEM quality screw blower. The Eaton blower head unit used in my kit is production approved for several GM platforms , and meets all of GM’s reliability , durability, and warranty standards as well as NVH. It is most certainly capable of “starting and acting reliably” when assembled properly.

I set out to provide a highly engineered and thoroughly tested kit that people can buy with confidence that the R&D was done, using made in the USA parts and suppliers, and yes this costs money.

It is the very best that I can do, and other than the foundry work, it is all produced in-house with no outsourcing. There is easily 6 figures in the engineering and tooling for this project- that is the cost of doing business and no single individual will determine the “market” for this, folks that want something done right will have interest, those shopping for a “good deal” at the expense of quality will not.

I did not do this to make money. I have this strange belief that there is a market, however small, that does appreciate products that are not created and marketed by middlemen and hucksters, built to the lowest common denominator, but rather do things to the very best of their ability and cater to those that appreciate this.

It is not intended for a person who is cross shopping a junkyard LS motor and adding $400 Chinese turbos “sloppy mechanic” style.

Please, do not misinterpret my post. I have the utmost respect for your ingenuity and efforts, and did not mean to undermine those efforts. I was merely speaking from a ROI standpoint.

I am just a peasant among all the big spenders here, although I knew that my post would result in negative responses. But my point stands. Most Pontiac engines are supported only by aftermarket parts and are sourced from China or Taiwan, or Mexico. Those countries use the metric system and while the parts come close to fitting, they are never quite right.

Your system, provided it is placed upon a quality-built Pontiac engine by Butler or other proven PONTIAC engine builders is going to work just fine, but wreak havoc on engines rebuilt with questionable parts. Just go read the thread decades old thread on overheating issues.

I am not here to disparage your company, why would I? I bought my first Pontiac in 1976 and have owned at least one continuously since that time, (I currently own four), so I have plenty of experience with them.

Still, I wish you much success with this project and who knows, I may end up trying one out myself. But ask yourself this: how many people out there are going to spend 20k on a Butler engine plus another 15k to add this system? Sure, there are lots of people salivating, but will they put their money where their mouth is?

The reason the sbc is the most utilized engine in history for racing, restorations, etc, is because of cost. But hey, it's your money.

I'm sure most won't get what I am saying. Wishing you the best.

[pont3]

Originally Posted by rerunss

I bet you’re a hoot to hang out with. You probably try to talk kids out of eating ice cream.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're wrong, most people I hang out with don't like it when I try to espouse reality, and I actually buy all the kids in my neighborhood ice cream every time the truck comes around.

My major point here is, we already have so many unsolved problems with our old Pontiacs that no one can seem to solve given the availability of genuine parts.

Here's the deal, my very first Pontiac was a 1972 GTO that I bought in 1976, and it NEVER overheated. Why do they overheat now? Why are people incessantly complaining about camshaft and lifter failures. Replacement stamped steel water pumps worked just fine back in the day, but somehow over the last twenty years or so, only the cast impeller will work properly, yet, we still have overheating issues.

I am not against the exploitation of the Pontiac engine's potential, just trying to be realistic. Just look at the host of problems posted every day in the street section.

[ID67goat]

Can we just keep on topic and keep opinions out of this thread so it doesn’t get shut down? There is a lobby for this kind of stuff.

This is a very cool project, I look forward to the updates, and wish much success with it!

[242177P]

Originally Posted by pont3

... we still have overheating issues.

Completely off base. You can clearly see a Meziere pump in the very first post.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by pont3

... We already have so many unsolved problems with our old Pontiacs...

Say what? I've been building/driving/competing with Pontiac engines since 1959 and truly can not recall a single unsolved problem.
If overheating were a persistent problem, wouldn't I have encountered that while hustling two consecutive laps around Nuerburgring on a hot summer day (the original 27 Kilometer track), with the end carbs open almost continually?

[HWYSTR455]

Shills invade even car forums.


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[darbikrash]

I received several pallets of production castings, I wanted to take some more photos of these with better lighting to showcase how nice even the raw castings are. Also, I sent the first castings out for powder coat, as I was concerned with the difference in finish as compared to the prototypes, which were anodized. Anodizing and castings do not get along well, so I wanted to test the powder coat finish. I am very happy with the powder coat, if anything it looks better as this particular color has some light metallic in it which really shows well in the sunlight.

Many more color choices with the powder coat, pretty much the sky is the limit with regard to color. Production units will allow the customer to specify the color, or leave it cast finish, which is also pretty darn nice by itself.

Lastly, I switched out all the carbide end mills with diamond tooling, the silicone content in the castings makes it hard to get a good finish with carbide. Night and day difference in finish quality as can be seen in the logo closeup, which is all done w/diamond tooling.

Final production lids right from the foundry:


Production (unmachined) riser:




Finish machined and powder coated lid:

[433lemans]

Nice!

[PONTYRAT1]

Will you be offering lid and manifolds to be purchased alone?

[darbikrash]

Originally Posted by PONTYRAT1

Will you be offering lid and manifolds to be purchased alone?

You can buy the supercharger head unit w/intercooler, manifolds, water crossover, and lid as a stand alone kit.

[Gary H]

Sorry I may have missed it, but do you have a website with more information and pricing?