[Tim Corcoran]

Butler website says they will build an engine for you your block or theirs. They also will use your heads I, pretty sure

[performerrpm]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

About 23 years ago here, i tried to claim i could build decent 455s for about $600 or so. That was when TRW forged slugs were < $230 from PAW. Forgot what the gasket and bearing kit was! but cheap it was.

Nowadays, impossible to be under $1200 on a few parts. The cores are so bad that easily over several $k for the stupid parts.

been along time since i seen a paw catalog

[1911a1]

I sent Butler my 455 a little over a year ago. They refused to use my factory crankshaft. 1200$ just to ship there and back. I just sent them the short block minus the crank. I bought just about everything else from them. I overbuilt on some items but don’t regret it. Since they in wanted to replace the factory crank I just upgraded to a forged and had 4 bolt billet caps fit. I bought the Edelbrock heads that Butler builds and went with a roller cam

[grivera]

1911 - did they say why they wouldn’t use your crankshaft?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by performerrpm

been along time since i seen a paw catalog

Best catalog ever. Still have one I use for reference sometimes. I like they fact that much of it was just copied pages right from the manufacturers.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 1911a1

I sent Butler my 455 a little over a year ago. They refused to use my factory crankshaft. 1200$ just to ship there and back. I just sent them the short block minus the crank. I bought just about everything else from them. I overbuilt on some items but don’t regret it. Since they in wanted to replace the factory crank I just upgraded to a forged and had 4 bolt billet caps fit. I bought the Edelbrock heads that Butler builds and went with a roller cam

If they did that to me I would refuse to use them. 455 cranks are PLENTY strong for just about any build.
They just want to sell you a crank.
Did they sell you a Ohio, the worst of the forged ? Where they make the most money ?

[steve25]

A builder can’t guarantee a factory cast crank will hold up once it gets a certain level of usage on it unlike a factory block.

On a factory block it’s well known at what hp and stroke level it will start unwinding itself, a crank at least to me is a crap shoot!

Mag testing a block 99 % of the time if it’s cracked it will show up, where as a internal crack starting off deep down where two oil passages intersect will not show up until the crank flat out gives up.

A real Magnaflux test done like the ones that can be certified for a aircraft are a whole other ball game then what gets used on automotive engines.

Does anyone really trust that a cast crank does not have a crack starting out just because it rings nice when you tap it with a hammer on a counter weight?

[1969GTO]

any difference good or bad with a "N" nodular iron crank from 1968? or is that the cast crank mentioned?

[tom s]

27 or so years ago when I built my 421 SD engine I decided to use a 428 4 bolt block so I could use a block mounted starter.I also used a 421 arma steel crank.I was magged,knife edged and nitrited.It was raced some in the early years but then just driven .Im actually going to do a oil sample to see what’s going on inside.Tom

[steve25]

One of the nice benefits of building a 350 or 400 is you can use a 1965-66 Armasteel 389 crank..

[Formulajones]

If you supply the block and crank which is almost basically how I start every build, I typically spend no less than $10k from start to finish on any brand engine, including sbc's.

By the time I do rods, pistons, all the block work to square it up and bore it, a good set of aluminum heads, not the cheap chinesium stuff, I still spend a little on them checking valve job and springs regardless if they are new, and all the other little things that add up. I usually go hydraulic roller which isn't a cheap route either. Even flat tappets I have nitrided and use lube style lifters that adds to the cost It's just not a cheap adventure anymore.

Call around, any competent shop can do a Pontiac, there isn't anything special about them. It's finding a good shop that takes pride in their work that is the hard part.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by 1969GTO

any difference good or bad with a "N" nodular iron crank from 1968? or is that the cast crank mentioned?

No there really isn’t much difference in any of the OEM cast cranks. Most all good machinist that grind cranks will mag the crank before they grind them. If it passes the mag test i wouldn’t hesitate to put them back to service.

Pretty much all the common factory Pontiac cranks are Nodular cast iron cranks with very little difference in strength. Arma steel is Nodular cast Iron also. The Arma steel is thought to be marginally stronger, but it is still a Nodular Cast crank. Pontiac engineers used the Arma crank in the RA2 and RA4 engines because they thought it was slightly stronger. Overall though there is very little strength difference on any of the common Arma or N Pontiac cranks.

Bulter simply wants to sell new cranks and not mess with dealing with machining used cranks. When they are using the fear of breaking a factory crank, but don’t mind selling you a Chinese nodular cast crank it pretty much says it all. The metalergy of an off shore nodular cranks is very very poor compared to a OEM Pontiac nodular cast crank.


I agree with Formulajones, unless Bulters are local to you, there is really no reason to send an engine to Bulter’s and wait for them to do it. Plenty of competent shops around.

[GPC]

Who does the camshaft nitriding?

[scott70]

Originally Posted by GPC

Who does the camshaft nitriding?

I ordered a custom cam from crower a few years ago and I believe they said they do it.

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by scott70

I ordered a custom cam from crower a few years ago and I believe they said they do it.

I have a cam that Crower did for Paul around Covid time, II bought it off of him last year but still haven’t even opened it up to look at it.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by steve25

One of the nice benefits of building a 350 or 400 is you can use a 1965-66 Armasteel 389 crank..

I have a 62 Armasteel 389 crank.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

I have a cam that Crower did for Paul around Covid time, II bought it off of him last year but still haven’t even opened it up to look at it.

At that time the nitriding was an extra 100-150.00 … around there.

[grivera]

There's always Len Williams: http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.co...ong_Block.html

[Tim Corcoran]

My lead time from Butler for custom Ross pistons was six weeks from order to my door. This was in 2024

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Call around, any competent shop can do a Pontiac, there isn't anything special about them. It's finding a good shop that takes pride in their work that is the hard part.

Years ago I went to a "Pontiac expert" who built a 505 IA2 for me. A flat cam, head gasket, broken rocker stud, rod through the pan and 3 engine r&r's later, i went with a local guy that mostly builds chevies and made fun of me for building a pontiac.

He can laugh at me all he wants because it hasn't had to come out since.