[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by KS circutguy

The whole point of the above video link was he reads the preliminary report along with flight path data.

Just finished reading the preliminary report. IMO as a retired maintainer, sounds like a GCU failure. GCU failure would restrict the amount of power available on the avionics buss to the point of the flight director failing. Coupled with a distracted pilot you have the makings for a disaster.

[Nobuddy]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

The 551 IS the same aircraft as 550; same systems…zero difference except for being limited to flying under 30,000 feet and the PIC having to stay on O2 the entire flight above 12,000 ft AGL. Citation IIs CAN be flown in a single pilot operation.

Well of course someone CAN, just not legally in a 550. Which is one reason why someone might choose an uncontrolled airport rather than one with full services.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Nobuddy

Well of course someone CAN, just not legally in a 550. Which is one reason why someone might choose an uncontrolled airport rather than one with full services.

LEGALLY. You just have to stay below 30, 000 ft, wear oxygen 100% of the time you are above 12,000ft and can’t operate on Part 135. Not familiar with the FARs? 551s ARE 550s. They are certified for single pilot operations. Any other questions? I take it you have a LIMITED background in general aviation?

[Nobuddy]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

LEGALLY. You just have to stay below 30, 000 ft, wear oxygen 100% of the time you are above 12,000ft and can’t operate on Part 135. Not familiar with the FARs? 551s ARE 550s. They are certified for single pilot operations. Any other questions? I take it you have a LIMITED background in general aviation?

I believe the Biffel plane was being operated without a legal second which was required.

But whatever you want to believe is fine with me. Maybe you should read the NTSB preliminary report.

[KS circutguy]

Originally Posted by Nobuddy

I believe the Biffel plane was being operated without a legal second which was required.

But whatever you want to believe is fine with me. Maybe you should read the NTSB preliminary report.

Exactly correct Sir.
No, Greg Biffle's jet was not approved to operate with just one pilot. The pilot, Dennis Dutton, was required to have a qualified co-pilot, which Biffle and the other passenger did not meet the necessary qualifications to fulfill. Yahoo thesunchronicle.com
Pilot Requirements for Greg Biffle's Jet
Aircraft Specifications
Model: Cessna Citation 550
Pilot Certification: Required two trained pilots for operation
Pilot Qualifications
Primary Pilot: Dennis Dutton, an experienced pilot
Co-Pilot: Jack Dutton, not qualified to serve as co-pilot for this aircraft
Greg Biffle: Also not qualified to act as a co-pilot
Conclusion
The Cessna Citation 550 required two qualified pilots to operate safely. Neither Jack Dutton nor Greg Biffle had the necessary endorsements to serve as co-pilot, which contributed to the circumstances surrounding the crash.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Nobuddy

I believe the Biffel plane was being operated without a legal second which was required.

But whatever you want to believe is fine with me. Maybe you should read the NTSB preliminary report.

Already have. Have you read the FARs on WHO can be a co-pilot? Once again, it seems you have extremely limited to NO EXPERIENCE in general aviation.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by KS circutguy

Exactly correct Sir.
No, Greg Biffle's jet was not approved to operate with just one pilot. The pilot, Dennis Dutton, was required to have a qualified co-pilot, which Biffle and the other passenger did not meet the necessary qualifications to fulfill. Yahoo thesunchronicle.com
Pilot Requirements for Greg Biffle's Jet
Aircraft Specifications
Model: Cessna Citation 550
Pilot Certification: Required two trained pilots for operation
Pilot Qualifications
Primary Pilot: Dennis Dutton, an experienced pilot
Co-Pilot: Jack Dutton, not qualified to serve as co-pilot for this aircraft
Greg Biffle: Also not qualified to act as a co-pilot
Conclusion
The Cessna Citation 550 required two qualified pilots to operate safely. Neither Jack Dutton nor Greg Biffle had the necessary endorsements to serve as co-pilot, which contributed to the circumstances surrounding the crash.

Yahoo is your “slam dunk” source? LOL…When I worked for HCA, we routinely flew our Citation Vs and Citation V Ultras in single pilot operation to ferry the aircraft to a maintenance base in Orlando. According to YOUR source this was illegal; according to the FARs it was perfectly LEGAL. Find a copy of the FAR/AIM ( Federal Aviation Regulations/ Airman’s Information Manual). Read 14CFR 91.5, 14 CFR 61.57 and 14CFR 61.58. To operate a multi engined aircraft certified for multiple crew members in single pilot operation the PIC ( Pilot In Command) has 1,500 TT, specialized training in said aircraft in the last eighteen months, and 15 hours in type in the last 90 days. IF this was a Part 135 flight, it would have been illegal. If it were a Part 91, but not under part K, it would have been LEGAL. I spent nearly thirty years in this industry.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Nobuddy

I believe the Biffel plane was being operated without a legal second which was required.

But whatever you want to believe is fine with me. Maybe you should read the NTSB preliminary report.

The FARs are on my side. You MIGHT want to read them.

[Nobuddy]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

The FARs are on my side. You MIGHT want to read them.

You should call the NTSB and educate them. This is from their preliminary report.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Nobuddy

You should call the NTSB and educate them. This is from their preliminary report.

HUGE difference between having a type certificate rating in a CE 500 and a CE 550…you DO know the difference in the aircraft, yes? Since WHEN does the NTSB enforce FAA regulations. Here’s a hint: research the subject matter BEFORE opining ignorantly. You have ZERO knowledge of the FAA, the NTSB, and general aviation. I have an extensive background in working with the FAA, the NTSB and spent nearly thirty YEARS of daily work experience in general aviation( primarily maintaining Part 91 and Part 135 aircraft)

[Nobuddy]

No need to shout.

A very small amount to research shows 500 and 550 are both part 25 transport category and require two pilots unless a pilot waiver is granted. For the pilot, not the aircraft. I understand the 501 and 551 are part 23 general aviation so single pilot is allowed.

No one said NTSB did enforcement, they investigate incidents or accidents and make safety recommendations. But I'm pretty sure they understand both aircraft type certificates and pilot qualifications.

This has been interesting but I think I will be stepping away from this thread.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Nobuddy

No need to shout.

A very small amount to research shows 500 and 550 are both part 25 transport category and require two pilots unless a pilot waiver is granted. For the pilot, not the aircraft. I understand the 501 and 551 are part 23 general aviation so single pilot is allowed.

No one said NTSB did enforcement, they investigate incidents or accidents and make safety recommendations. But I'm pretty sure they understand both aircraft type certificates and pilot qualifications.

This has been interesting but I think I will be stepping away from this thread.

Type certificate certification doesn’t work that way. As a pilot, you ARE required to hold a type certification in EVERY aircraft you fly, period. You say there isn’t that much difference between a CE500 and a CE550; really? The CE550 is nearly fifty knots faster, four thousand pounds heavier and more powerful engines. That explains WHY the pilot was required by the FAA to have another CE500 certification co-pilot; he wasn’t typed in the 550. Remember, you are attempting to play in a world I worked in for nearly THIRTY YEARS. BTW…both the 500 and 550 are GENERAL AVIATION AIRCRAFT; the 500/501 and the 550/551 are IDENTICAL aircraft.

[johnta1]

I don't know cr@p about aircraft, or stay at Holiday Inn Expresses, but what was the cause/reason/whatever that Biffle had to die?

[KS circutguy]

Dillon never should have taken off in that bird. imo
He had several problems that should have stopped him from making a decision to take off.

[KS circutguy]

Correction the pilot was Dennis Dutton.
Contributing Factors

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) preliminary report indicated several issues leading to the crash:

Pilot Experience: The pilot, Dennis Dutton, was experienced, but the copilot, Jack Dutton, lacked the necessary qualifications for the aircraft.

Instrument Failures: The aircraft experienced multiple instrument failures, including issues with the altitude indicator and thrust reverser indicator lights.

Communication Problems: There were difficulties in radio communication, which may have hindered the crew's ability to manage the flight effectively.

Flight Conditions: The weather included low clouds and light rain, which could have affected visibility.
The investigation is ongoing, and the final report will determine the probable cause and contributing factors of the crash.

[Nobuddy]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Type certificate certification doesn’t work that way. As a pilot, you ARE required to hold a type certification in EVERY aircraft you fly, period. You say there isn’t that much difference between a CE500 and a CE550; really? The CE550 is nearly fifty knots faster, four thousand pounds heavier and more powerful engines. That explains WHY the pilot was required by the FAA to have another CE500 certification co-pilot; he wasn’t typed in the 550. Remember, you are attempting to play in a world I worked in for nearly THIRTY YEARS. BTW…both the 500 and 550 are GENERAL AVIATION AIRCRAFT; the 500/501 and the 550/551 are IDENTICAL aircraft.

Good you see you now agree with everyone that a qualified second pilot was required for this pilot and this plane.

Your reading comprehension needs some work.

[Skidmark]

I don't know much about FAR or the FAA, but I never need a co pilot when i'm flying down the interstate in my 72 Lemans. She can be flown singlehanded all day long.

[johnta1]

That's about what I do, keep it just under lift off speed!

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Nobuddy

Good you see you now agree with everyone that a qualified second pilot was required for this pilot and this plane.

Your reading comprehension needs some work.

ONLY for this pilot, since he did not hold a type rating in the C550. Do I need to refer you back to the FARs that state an aircraft certified for two pilots CAN be legally flown with one? You don’t learn very fast. Read 14CFR 61.58, better known as FAR 61.58. Know the difference between FAR 23 aircraft and FAR 25 aircraft? 500 lbs. Here’s some food for thought: the Cessna Citation S/II is an FAR 25 aircraft ( over 12,500 lbs) yet is certified for single pilot flight. The Beechcraft Super King Air 300 was certified under SFAR 23 yet weighs in excess of 12,500 lbs and IS certified for single pilot operation. Explain these( if you can…I definitely can).

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I don't know cr@p about aircraft, or stay at Holiday Inn Expresses, but what was the cause/reason/whatever that Biffle had to die?

John, as a retired thirty year aircraft maintenance professional my opinion is there were multiple flight instrument failures ( possible GCU related) coupled with a pilot who did not have an appropriate type certificate for the aircraft involved who was in way over his head.