[Will]

you could build a 400 to perform similarly to an LS but there are some factors working against you.

Mainly intake and engine management. We simply don't have the FI specific intake manifolds and engine management systems available to us.

I think the closest you could come would look something like a basic forged rod, high silicon content forged piston at 0 or even +.005" deck, modern ring package, topped with a set of KRE or Edelbrock D-port heads with some port work to get into the 290cfm range and set to ~10.5:1 compression. Run a moderate roller cam, somewhere in the 218-224 @ .050" range on the intake with a relatively wide LSA and use whatever exhaust duration works to get the overlap and flow balance you need. Run some Harland Sharp 1.7 ratio rockers. Intake will have to be chosen from what's available and a stock or Perf. RPM would probably be best though maybe a Torker II or HSD/Northwind intake would work okay but the runners are really too short on those for optimum low end/midrange performance (this is where the intake issue comes in) topped with a throttle body FI system like a Fitech that also controls timing.

Sure, you could get more in-depth with a port injection system but I'm not sure how much better that would actually be and a proper intake is STILL an issue.

Seems to me a 400 set up as above ought to perform on par with a typical junkyard 6.0 LS. Might not be as efficient/get as good of mileage but the power should be there.

Power and efficiency are in the heads and intake and that is where it's hard for the Pontiac to compete.

Not talking about cost, just answering the question originally posed.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Will

you could build a 400 to perform similarly to an LS but there are some factors working against you.

Looking at similar to 400 engine size, this LS is at 580 HP. I think the Pontiac would fall 60 to 70 HP short on its best day. No way will 224 @ .050 cut it.

https://www.texas-speed.com/p-3573-t...y-package.aspx

The hotter 408 engine 620 HP, will require 2,800 RPM stall speed converter, starting to get "racey"
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-3574-t...y-package.aspx

[66sprint6]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

I even thought the Supra engine in the Firebird that popped up a while ago was a neat project.

I was thinking of a way to take the engine out of my wife’s X4M40i and stick it in my Sprint. Such a smooth engine with liquid power. I’d never judge someone throwing whatever engine into whatever car. Isn’t that what this hobby is all about? Pushing the boundaries and using your skills to get the best performance out of your vehicle.

[Tom Vaught]

The government changed the rules.
It used to be that the Engine on the larger vehicles was certified by the builder of the engine. In the old days a engine supplier like the International or Navistar people.
They certified the engine and held the engine warranty and Ford held the chassis certification and warranty.

Then the government said the final manufacturer would be responsible for the entire warranty. So engine repair costs were no longer the responsibility of the he engine manufacturer. Bad idea by the government.
Engine issues, due to poor assembly/etc sharply rose with no way to fix it except for Ford to design their own engines. That took years for them to learn that deal.

The 6.0 liter range engines were not that great due to the learning curve.

Things are better today. There is always a reason why stuff turns to chit. ALWAYS.

GM and Chevrolet threw Olds and Pontiac to the side of the road. The engineering since they disappeared has all gone towards the LS type engines. About 40 years worth.

You guys remind me of the Ford Flathead people.


Tom V.

['ol Pinion head]

Have no use for an LS powered pickup or a V10 powered ANYTHING. Have ran across too many 6.0's in shops that were wiped out. Most recent i ran across, didn't have 60K on it & camshaft took it out.

Truck wise, I love my old Cummins Dodge 2500 ext cab, one of the last of the 12V's. NewProcess stick, Dana80 posi, Laramie equip. Not a bit of rust in it, interior is very clean. As such, have had over a dozen well informed folks inquire over the last 15 years about me selling the Ram to them so they could use it to tow their toy haulers & big boats with it. Answer has always been, uh no. Several have cked in many times over the years asking same question. The Cummins Ram was perfect for what I needed in year 2000, & near 20 years later, it continues to be a great & dependable tow vehicle. Still gets 16-17 mpg around town, 21-23 on the hwy. So dependable, biggest expense til recent cosmetic upgrades was a new slave cyl for the clutch.

Am sure, if you're one of those that has to have the latest & greatest "upgrade", such a truck wouldn't be the truck for you. As a buyer who has to have the every power "bell & whistle"; luxury & convenience option (which reliability issues will arise w over the years)... it wouldn't be for you. If it is all about stock towing capacity, & to wet your whistle, it takes near a 1000 ft/lb of torque to haul your load @ 90mph at midnight through the Cumberland Gap "racing", it wouldn't be for you. Never could understand that kind of nonsense, but having sat in a cab of a dually in a pack of 3/4 tons & dually owners pulling loaded encloseds that the owners just thought it was the thing to do, I still think it's nuts.

In recognition of its 21st birthday, recently completed an update to the Ram.
- removed the chrome & faded plastic trimmed front bumper & installed a 2001 Ram Sport urethane front bumper (picked up cheap a few years back). Sport bumper, grille asm & new rear bumper blade are now bc/cc metallic charcoal. Matching new Sport headlights & a new windshield increased vision. PDR work to remove numerous hail dents. A few hours of bodywork & blend of paint to rh bedside. Tires were getting thin, so upgraded to a set of 2018 Laramie 18" alum wheels & 275-70 10 plys. Last, a pair of fold out electic tow mirrors. Def like 'em, they look a ton better than the faded small originals. They also work well, & I could care less if their perceived obtrusion into say, a drive in's parking spot offends some snowflake. Next addition will be removing the old stereo FE unit & disc changer & installing a new FE unit w bluetooth & a backup monitor. Anyone having done so, feel free & drop me a PM. Having become accustomed to my wife's late model Toyota's FE unit's functions, am really looking forward to backing up the Ram to our trailers with such a feature.

#NO Black Boxes
'MERICA

[avman]

I am going to sell our H2 Hummer, and my vehicle of choice to replace it is whatever the best value is out there on a 4WD turbo DIESEL Ford Excursion. If I can't find what I want in a used Excursion, my 2nd choice is a Mega Cab Cummins powered Ram, 4WD.
My problem is I need maximum enclosed in the same space area (for my 3 Lab mixes and 1 micro mini 40 pound pig) and it has to be 4WD and a turbo diesel.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Looking at similar to 400 engine size, this LS is at 580 HP. I think the Pontiac would fall 60 to 70 HP short on its best day. No way will 224 @ .050 cut it.

https://www.texas-speed.com/p-3573-t...y-package.aspx

The hotter 408 engine 620 HP, will require 2,800 RPM stall speed converter, starting to get "racey"
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-3574-t...y-package.aspx

Where does it say the cam duration used?

But i think if people thought outside of the box a little a Pontiac 400 could make 550-600hp with a fairly small cam.

[Dragncar]

New trucks are jut too EXPENSIVE!!!!!! Its crazy, nuts. I paid 32K for my Tundra in 08 (07 Truck, 87K miles on it now) It had a 42,000$ sticker price and I got a great deal. A new one like it is 62 freaking thousand dollars. A lot of guys are talking about it. Its insane.

No turbos on gas trucks. Aluminum doors, fenders and beds, you can have that. UN-repairable, or cost more than new panels will cost. Ford trucks used to be the standard "crummie" truck around here. Loggers take them way out in the woods and beat the he!! out of them. Throw chain saws, heavy tools. All of them had a extra fuel tank in the bed.How do you think the aluminum is holding up?? NOT is more like it.
Just a nice well built truck with a big NA engine, tough tranny and rear and not overly complicated. You know, a truck! What is wrong with that. Sure is hard to find though.
Bet you never see gas/turbo truck go 300,000 miles. It will blow a head gasket or wipe a cam first. Not hard to do in a Tundra, and made in Texas.

[Cliff R]

"There's something wrong with that truck, or trailer, in my opinion. No way it should struggle that bad towing 1500 pounds."

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 6.0 2500 GMC truck. Unless you missed it in my comments it was just fine on flat ground and ran really well once we came out of West Virginia into North Carolina and out of the steep grades and hard pulls on I-77 South.

We ran on down into Florida pretty much w/o any issues, it stayed in 6th gear.

On the return trip once we got into Northern Georgia the downshifting deal and revving to 5000rpms thing started all over again. The problem is with how GM set up the shift program in the ECM. They will NOT allow the engine to "lug" and the "manual" mode will not override the downshift program. So if you try to lock into 4th or 5th on a hard pull it will bypass those gears and go DIRECTLY to 3rd or even 2nd gear and sit at 5000rpm's till you crest the hill and remove the load.

What a total POS set-up. I'm sure the 6.0 will lug OK in the mid-range even with bigger trailers and steeper grades than we were pulling but the factory has them set up to downshift to lower gears and the engine just about ready to fly out from between the fenders instead........Cliff

[Jay S]

I am late to the party, but here are some comments regarding the LS and Pontiac comparison. To me the performance Gap between the Pontiac based designs and the LS engine is slowing being reeled in. Turbo or N/A. Just comparing a ls 6 liter to a 400 is not using a Pontiacs attributes very well, with the same cam and cid the LS will handily beat the Pontiac. But the Pontiac has about a 1 inch taller deck than a std LS engine. Unless it is some sort of cid restrict class racing, use the CID to your advantages. Especially on a NA engine.

Here is on good example. Richard Guido out of Alberta canada runs a 515 cid turbo gto, he drives to and in Hot Rod drag week. Sometimes the trip is 2000 miles one way. I do not remember the exact mpg he average. But if I recall it was around 21-23 mpg. Unleashed IRC, it is capable of a lot of hp. Each year he seems to find more.

https://m.facebook.com/1320Videos/po...56578262167112

For a long long time I assumed big cid automatically meant gas guzzler. I no longer think that. Maybe there is a price for being big in town. Out on the open road we get in the low 20s mpg with 500+ Cid cars, no EFI, no overdrive.

Pontiac never had a MPFI system. That is one big reason you can go to a junkyard and pick up a LS in good shape, versus the Pontiac at the same miles is shot. I have a Yukon XL 6 liter about to 340,000 miles, still chugging along. They are great engines. I understand why people do the low dollar swaps. I consider doing a 6.0 swap in my 71 Chevelle, until I saw a LS in someone’s GTO years back. There is just something about classic muscle cars that the LS swap misses the mark. Put it in your 3rd gen firebird, fox body, street rod or pickup. LS is cool.. I put a 455 Olds in it years go for the same reason people do LS swaps now. Low budget, use what I have or can find.

FWIW, I have gotten right at 29.7 highway 200 mile round trip with a 5.9 Cummins in a 4x4 2003 extended cab pickup. It has about as many miles as my Yukon. Yukon best ever mpg is 16.5. 97 dodge dually 5 speed w/Cummins fuel up to about the same hp 350 or so gets 15-17mpg. 97 dodge has been one tough truck. My wifes magnum r/t awd with a hopped up 5.7 hemi gets low 20s. About the same as my 69 charger 510 cid with 3.23s.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"There's something wrong with that truck, or trailer, in my opinion. No way it should struggle that bad towing 1500 pounds."

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 6.0 2500 GMC truck. Unless you missed it in my comments it was just fine on flat ground and ran really well once we came out of West Virginia into North Carolina and out of the steep grades and hard pulls on I-77 South.

We ran on down into Florida pretty much w/o any issues, it stayed in 6th gear.

On the return trip once we got into Northern Georgia the downshifting deal and revving to 5000rpms thing started all over again. The problem is with how GM set up the shift program in the ECM. They will NOT allow the engine to "lug" and the "manual" mode will not override the downshift program. So if you try to lock into 4th or 5th on a hard pull it will bypass those gears and go DIRECTLY to 3rd or even 2nd gear and sit at 5000rpm's till you crest the hill and remove the load.

What a total POS set-up. I'm sure the 6.0 will lug OK in the mid-range even with bigger trailers and steeper grades than we were pulling but the factory has them set up to downshift to lower gears and the engine just about ready to fly out from between the fenders instead........Cliff

I know exactly what you're talking about Cliff. Dad bought his 2014 6.0 brand new and it's been that way since day one. It's just the way they are setup from the factory with those 6 speed transmissions. We've towed across country with it on multiple occasions. It's fine on flat ground but once you get out West here where the mountain grades are that transmission can't decide what gear it wants and most of the time it has the engine setting on 5,000 rpm to maintain speed. When we had to climb Bradshaw mountain from the Verde Valley coming into PV, it's a 7 mile stretch from sea level to about 7,000 feet. You basically have to keep the throttle matted on the floor, and the truck will maintain about 50 mph and 5,000 rpm in what I believe to be about 2nd gear. The truck just stays there for the entire 7 mile stretch. You can't let off the gas or you loose your momentum. It's a butt puckering experience constantly watching the temp gauge and the oil pressure, LOL Meanwhile people are blowing past you at 70 mph and you're trying to look as far ahead as you can for slower moving semis so you can switch lanes without loosing momentum. It's a real pain in the rump and really puts you in a dangerous situation. That's why I'm all about diesel these days, lol.

[GTO JONES]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I know exactly what you're talking about Cliff. Dad bought his 2014 6.0 brand new and it's been that way since day one. It's just the way they are setup from the factory with those 6 speed transmissions. We've towed across country with it on multiple occasions. It's fine on flat ground but once you get out West here where the mountain grades are that transmission can't decide what gear it wants and most of the time it has the engine setting on 5,000 rpm to maintain speed. When we had to climb Bradshaw mountain from the Verde Valley coming into PV, it's a 7 mile stretch from sea level to about 7,000 feet. You basically have to keep the throttle matted on the floor, and the truck will maintain about 50 mph and 5,000 rpm in what I believe to be about 2nd gear. The truck just stays there for the entire 7 mile stretch. You can't let off the gas or you loose your momentum. It's a butt puckering experience constantly watching the temp gauge and the oil pressure, LOL Meanwhile people are blowing past you at 70 mph and you're trying to look as far ahead as you can for slower moving semis so you can switch lanes without loosing momentum. It's a real pain in the rump and really puts you in a dangerous situation. That's why I'm all about diesel these days, lol.

And that was with a 10,000 trailer loaded to the max LOL.

[Formulajones]

And the 12 foot uhaul trailer

[Sirrotica]

I'd be looking into reprograming the ECM parameters if, I owned a newer gas truck with an LS engine.

Fortunately (I guess) I own 3 trucks, newest being a 1995 3500HD box truck with a 4L80E, 6.5 TD. They're all diesels. Owning old crap requires keeping up on the maintenance, but no payments...…….

Because the LS2 in my 05 GTO has a 4l60E behind it, the ECM is always trying to protect the engine from overpowering the transmission. With drive by wire throttle the throttle opens as the ECM sees fit, considering traction control input, and the slightly weaker transmission protection parameters.

[darbikrash]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Truck wise, I love my old Cummins Dodge 2500 ext cab, one of the last of the 12V's. NewProcess stick, Dana80 posi, Laramie equip. Not a bit of rust in it, interior is very clean. As such, have had over a dozen well informed folks inquire over the last 15 years about me selling the Ram to them so they could use it to tow their toy haulers & big boats with it. Answer has always been, uh no. Several have cked in many times over the years asking same question. The Cummins Ram was perfect for what I needed in year 2000, & near 20 years later, it continues to be a great & dependable tow vehicle. Still gets 16-17 mpg around town, 21-23 on the hwy. So dependable, biggest expense til recent cosmetic upgrades was a new slave cyl for the clutch.

Am sure, if you're one of those that has to have the latest & greatest "upgrade", such a truck wouldn't be the truck for you. As a buyer who has to have the every power "bell & whistle"; luxury & convenience option (which reliability issues will arise w over the years)... it wouldn't be for you. If it is all about stock towing capacity, & to wet your whistle, it takes near a 1000 ft/lb of torque to haul your load @ 90mph at midnight through the Cumberland Gap "racing", it wouldn't be for you. Never could understand that kind of nonsense, but having sat in a cab of a dually in a pack of 3/4 tons & dually owners pulling loaded encloseds that the owners just thought it was the thing to do, I still think it's nuts.

Had the same experience with my Dodge 12V Cummins. Bought the truck new in ’95, never needed anything but oil and fuel filter changes. The transmission was another story. While it never failed, it was definitely the weak point in the truck.

It seemed a near constant stream of people knocking on my door to try and buy it. Always said no. I finally gave in last year and sold it to a guy who knocked on the door for ½ what I paid for it 23 years earlier.

I bought a 2018 Silverado with the L5P Duramax. Others may disagree, but this is hands down the best light/medium duty diesel out there. Night and day from the 12V Cummins. I had to special order the truck, because all the local inventory of Duramax’s were trucks larded up with every option and a price tag to match. I wanted a stripped truck, and the dealer initially said they would not order it as they had a limited allocation and the diesels were reserved for high option trucks. It took 6 months, but I got a special order stripped 2500 Duramax HD with cloth seats and not much else. I even had them delete that OnStar nonsense and that took some doing.

I figure adjusted for inflation I paid about the same as my ’95 Dodge. As the previous one lasted 23 years, this is the last truck I’m going to buy.

[grandam1979]

So after reading all this the answer is no not dollar to dollar. FYI that was my opinion from the start love my Pontiacs but modern LS or Hemi’s are hard to keep up with.

[Formulajones]

Yep, getting back on subject, you're right. Dollar for dollar it's not all that comparable. Especially since you aren't going to the local yard these days to pick up a 50 year old used Pontiac engine and slapping a turbo on it. That's if you can even find one, lol.

That's where the LS craze comes from. They are plentiful and easily found in usable condition as is. In another 50 years that won't be the case and we'll be complaining about the next generation small block, lol.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"There's something wrong with that truck, or trailer, in my opinion. No way it should struggle that bad towing 1500 pounds."

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 6.0 2500 GMC truck. Unless you missed it in my comments it was just fine on flat ground and ran really well once we came out of West Virginia into North Carolina and out of the steep grades and hard pulls on I-77 South.

We ran on down into Florida pretty much w/o any issues, it stayed in 6th gear.

On the return trip once we got into Northern Georgia the downshifting deal and revving to 5000rpms thing started all over again. The problem is with how GM set up the shift program in the ECM. They will NOT allow the engine to "lug" and the "manual" mode will not override the downshift program. So if you try to lock into 4th or 5th on a hard pull it will bypass those gears and go DIRECTLY to 3rd or even 2nd gear and sit at 5000rpm's till you crest the hill and remove the load.

What a total POS set-up. I'm sure the 6.0 will lug OK in the mid-range even with bigger trailers and steeper grades than we were pulling but the factory has them set up to downshift to lower gears and the engine just about ready to fly out from between the fenders instead........Cliff

Certainly sounds like NOTHING is wrong with the truck to me!

I've heard of gear "hunting" problems with some of the new transmissions with lots of gears. So it downshifts and stays at 5000 rpm and doesn't upshift or gain speed? Is it floor-boarded at this point? sounds like the GM's torque management and shift programming are not right. My truck will downshift to second gear and fly up to around 5 grand on hills occasionally. But it just stays there very briefly, gains speed, and upshifts.

[HWYSTR455]

New Car Craft, March 2020 (What the!?!), has a layout of a 'COPO' tribute 2010 Camaro with a built LS7, done in true 'performance' fashion. LS7 block, Callies crank & rods, Mahle forged pistons, custom cam, Mast Black Label 305 CFM LS7 heads with bigger valve, chambers opened up, and a ProCharger F-1x blower, aftermarket intake, aftermarket throttle body. 1135hp to the rear wheels, which is what, like 1300hp flywheel? How much do you think that cost?

They originally had a Edelbrock blower on it, but were pushing it 10% past what Edelbrock recommends, just to get the power they wanted.

Then on page 16, they talk about 'free hp' by unshrouding and opening up the chambers on LS3 heads. That engine they did a used turbo, and struggled to get 900hp at 700hp with a T4. They got 914hp on a BBC with 22.5 psi, with a 'theoretical' @1200hp, but, they didn't prove it.

You can pull a RoadKill and toss a turbo on a junk yard LS and get shocking power, but for how long?

There's no free lunch. Period. You get what you pay for.

.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Most of my issues with the 2018 Dodge were engine, transmission and rear diff related. It also had numerous other problems but I'll quickly just hit the main stuff.

The engine started out fine, 13.5mpg's which wasn't great but not that hateful. Then it started "surging" and acted like it was "hunting" for the right tune for lack of better words to describe it. Mileage fell to 11.3-11.4 and stayed there not matter how easy you drove it. Several trips to the dealer with ZERO improvement or answers.

Then the diff started "whining", not just a little, it got really loud. I was out in Colorado on a hunting trip and discovered the diff was WAY low on fluid, took over 2 quarts to get it near the fill hole...YIKES! The noise didn't get any worse after that but damage was done. When I got back the dealership told me it was fine and that I "over-filled" it.....WTF. Not possible to "over-fill" one as any excess runs out the fill hole, but they tried to put it back on me.

Then the trans, biggest POS in any vehicle I owned period. When you slowed down coming to a stop or yield and didn't completely stop it would "bind-up" between several gears and "lug" the engine and truck wasn't moving. Then if you kept pushing down on the throttle it would finally find low gear and throw you and all your chit into the back seat, any drinks or coffee in mugs without good lids would be all over the place!

Never set an engine or trans code so the dealership kept saying it was fine. Even threw some BS at me that even the owner of the dealership drove the truck, couldn't hear the "whine" in the diff, trans never acted up once and the engine never "surged".......I left the dealership that day and drove to a Chevy dealership and traded it off!......Never again will I go that direction no matter what the price or how good everyone says that junk is.........FWIW.......Cliff

At work we had bought a brand new 2017 Dodge v-8 with a 9.6" V plow. Traded in a 2006 ford that was bought by us new. The surging and the transmission lugging and then all of a sudden downshifting with the grace of a buffalo in a china shop is annoying. Your description is spot on. The ford was much nicer to use. Made my mind up I wouldnt buy a dodge truck. The dealership said it acted like that because of the emissions . My first foreign truck was a 2010 tundra limited with 5.7. That truck had some balls! Truck before that was a GMC SLE 5.3. Ive always been a Gm guy but when I drove the tundra i was sold. Just about everything i liked better on the tundra,,,transmission,power,ride,etc. We just traded it in last feb and bought another tundra,2019 limited ext. cab.