[roadrage david]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Torker I intake and fuel injection??? Seriously Dave, last time I back to back dyno'd a Torker I intake it was down over 50 hp from my "stock" iron intake. I've watched guys laptop those fuel injections systems for hours on the dyno and never could make the power I'd get from a $5 recalibrated Q-jet on the very first pull!

What genius came up with that combination of parts?

BTW, did you make a couple passes with your car at the track outing? I can't wait to see the low 11 second timeslips over 120 mph from the XE284 camshaft to back up the dyno report(s)......LOL......Cliff

I dont care Cliff facts are facts and bij the way your ""back toBack"" testing latly hase lost a lot of merrit!! http://www.pacificperformanceracing....-products.html Chek fuel injection system . Kaufman engine parts imported , block was mashined overhere. there are as MANNY engines underperforming with a Crower 60919 cam as you claim a XE274 cam thuse. now the oposit hase shown itself, and your crying out loud "" its the fuel injection and the manifold"". Duh the above engine hase the same manifold and the XE cam and thuse aczackly the oposit as what you normally claim. OOHH and for the 150th Time i dont drag race chek the road race stint post on the race section..

[Cliff R]

Every single 455 we've build, dyno'd and backed up with drag strip runs has made right at, or over 500hp, and pushed whatever we put them into to 11's at the track. Even a good friends ragged out T/A at 4000lbs and used circle track throw away tires went 11.98 @ 113mph with a budget 455 and a set of unported KRE heads we sent him to throw on it!

You guys either A, didn't make the power, or B, don't have a CLUE as to how to effectively use it. I would imagine combinations of both A and B, based on what I've read from you in the past.

Not the first bit interested in fuel injection, tons of money and complicated wiring to run no faster anyplace as a $5 junkyard carb that I can recalibrate/set-up in the time you spend on your lunch break.

The Torker I is a piss-poor choice for that application, at least compared the the Torker II, which to date has made the highest peak HP for any test I've done with 455's in that power range. You guys should be smarter than that over there, IMHO. We do all this testing and post the results to help folks out, not to critisize them when they come up considerably short with their project engines.

I drag race my "daily driver", in full street trim, and freely post the results, and how we got them. I don't use "drag racing" gearing, or a super loose converter, and can run nearly into the 10's with it at the track. Surely your "road race" set up could post some high 11's over 120mph for us....I'd certainly be impressed if in ran low 12's at 118 or so?

In any case, my recomendation would be to pay closer attention to some of the testing that we do and post the results on.......and you just might end up with some fast cars over there using the same parts we do?......Have a great day!......Cliff

[ponchbro]

Originally Posted by roadrage david

I dont care Cliff facts are facts and bij the way your ""back toBack"" testing latly hase lost a lot of merrit!! http://www.pacificperformanceracing....-products.html Chek fuel injection system . Kaufman engine parts imported , block was mashined overhere. there are as MANNY engines underperforming with a Crower 60919 cam as you claim a XE274 cam thuse. now the oposit hase shown itself, and your crying out loud "" its the fuel injection and the manifold"". Duh the above engine hase the same manifold and the XE cam and thuse aczackly the oposit as what you normally claim. OOHH and for the 150th Time i dont drag race chek the road race stint post on the race section..

Dave, Post your dyno sheets!!!

[Cliff R]

"Every single 455 we've build, dyno'd and backed up with drag strip runs has made right at, or over 500hp, and pushed whatever we put them into to 11's at the track."

Just to clarify, this is with KRE's UNPORTED aluminum "D" port heads (which have been reported as flowing as little as 235cfm from some sources), and the Crower 60919 Crower camshaft.

With roller cams, and/or ported versions of these heads, the dyno and track numbers have been even better.......Cliff

[tc]

Originally Posted by grandville455

Tom
So your conv is fairly loose too then to be able to hold to 2800.Ttried mine yesterday in the parking lot and it wanted to push the car at 22 and did at 2400... How does it drive on street? When u mean slow to get moving.. u mean when only stalling it to 1500 then leaving compared to 2800?...

Mr. Track Champion ( tc?) At home with the brakes on,the rear tires will break loose at 3000 rpm. With the tires heated up at the track, I have not gone past 2800.

As for comparing my reaction time with different stall speeds, I haven't really done that yet. We only get two time trials, so I need to do that on a t&t day. Only I still need to do other tests like changing the timing and getting the carb set better, first.

[roadrage david]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Every single 455 we've build, dyno'd and backed up with drag strip runs has made right at, or over 500hp, and pushed whatever we put them into to 11's at the track."

Just to clarify, this is with KRE's UNPORTED aluminum "D" port heads (which have been reported as flowing as little as 235cfm from some sources), and the Crower 60919 Crower camshaft.

With roller cams, and/or ported versions of these heads, the dyno and track numbers have been even better.......Cliff

We are not talking about the 100.000, 60919 cam aczamples that you have supost to have build Cliff.
We are talking about the ones that fall flat on there face from other hands. just like the 100.000 flat on there face falling xe powerd engines you are raveing about.....................

[Cliff R]

Dave, not exactly sure what you are talking about, or what point you are trying to make? I can assure you that I have built, dyno'd, street, strip and dropped a flag back road tested more engines by ACCIDENT, than you have on PURPOSE.

The results of some of our dyno testing are public record, published in both HPP and Popular Hot Rodding's Engine Masters magazines. We've duplicated the results, and improved upon them time and time again, with perfect success in every single instance.

So from where I'm sitting, once again, you're just talking out of your backside, not missing a single opportunity to kick me in the nuts either directly or indirectly, so don't be so surprised if you get a response from me by choosing that course of action...FWIW.

In any case, it is not my purpose to come on these threads and argue with someone with ABSOLUTELY ZERO track and dyno time with anything. Our results are documented, and we repeat them every single time we show up at a track, or carry an engine to the dyno, etc. From what I can see, your results are 2nd or 3rd hand information, or obtained from some dyno sheet that was shipped with your order, and never backed up any of those results at any level.

So what's to argue about? Come back up on here with some documented dragstrip runs, or get to a chassis dyno, etc, and put up something we can discuss like professionals. If you are coming up short on making power anyplace, like the example you thru up here a few threads ago, I'm here to help, not critisize your efforts......Cliff

[roadrage david]

Dave, not exactly sure what you are talking about,--------YES YOU DO---------- or what point you are trying to make?---- YOU KNOW ACZACKLY WHAT POINT IM TRYING TO MAKE----- I can assure you that I have built, dyno'd, street, strip and dropped a flag back road tested more engines by ACCIDENT, than you have on PURPOSE.---SO THUSE THAT MEEN YOUR FINDINGS ARE ABSOLUTE---------

The results of some of our dyno testing are public record, published in both HPP and Popular Hot Rodding's Engine Masters magazines. We've duplicated the results, and improved upon them time and time again, with perfect success in every single instance.----
--------------------SO HAVE OTHERS WITH DIFEREND OUTCOME----------

So from where I'm sitting, once again, you're just talking out of your backside-----LOOK WHO IS TALKING-------------, not missing a single opportunity to kick me in the nuts either directly or indirectly,------ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF AND THE XE CAM BASHING------------------ so don't be so surprised if you get a response from me by choosing that course of action...FWIW.---------LIKEWIZE-------------

In any case, it is not my purpose to come on these threads and argue with someone with ABSOLUTELY ZERO track and dyno time with anything.----------IM PRETY SURE MY KINDA TRACK TIME ECSEADS YOUR KINDA TRACKTIME------------- Our results are documented, and we repeat them every single time we show up at a track, or carry an engine to the dyno, etc. From what I can see, your results are 2nd or 3rd hand information, or obtained from some dyno sheet that was shipped with your order, and never backed up any of those results at any level.-----------------OOOWW WEL CALL MY ENGINE BUILDER AND EVERYBODY ELS WITH THE SAME RESULTS A LIAR JUST TO LIFT YOURSELF .WHERE ARE ALL THE XE BASHING DYNO SHEETS YOU HAVE BEEN ON ABOUT THAT ALL FELL ON THERE FACE FLAT THAT IS----------------

So what's to argue about?------- HOWABOUT YOU BS FINDINGS THAT YOU PREATCH AND ARE THE ONLY MERRIT ONES ON THIS PLANET---------------- Come back up on here with some documented dragstrip runs, or get to a chassis dyno, etc,-------------ARE YOU DEAF LAME ORE MUTE ORE HAVE YOU LET YOU 8TRACK ON AGAIN-------------------- and put up something we can discuss like professionals.-THERE ARE PLENTY OF PROFESIONAL ENGINE BUILDERS I DISCUSE WITH YOUR JUST NOT ONE OF THEM---------- If you are coming up short on making power anyplace, like the example you thru up here a few threads ago, I'm here to help, not critisize your efforts......Cliff ---------------DONT NEED YOUR HELP CLIFF CAUSE I GOT A P-BODY----------------

[Cliff R]

Lovely! About the only thing I got out of that rant that was even remotely accurate was that I admit that I'm an "XE Cam Basher"....Still looking for some track numbers with your car to prove otherwise....LOL....Cliff

PS: I'm not remotely interested in your "love-life" either, with P-Body or whoever....

[GTO JONES]

Reading the thread here about the converter part of it got me wondering so I checked to see what number converter I had. Mine is 10 400 P3 P/S, and it is loose. So what is the P3 mean? I know when I get in it through the gears it does not drop below 4000 rpm when it shifts. I guess this question is for Cliff or who can answer it

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by GTO JONES

Reading the thread here about the converter part of it got me wondering so I checked to see what number converter I had. Mine is 10 400 P3 P/S, and it is loose. So what is the P3 mean? I know when I get in it through the gears it does not drop below 4000 rpm when it shifts. I guess this question is for Cliff or who can answer it

Hmm Weird Cause mine is P1 and it's pretty tight,Flashes to 3500 on launch and only drops to 4500 on shifts!. I think it depends on also where your making peak torque at where it drops on shifts?

P.S David and Cliff... You two need to duke it out behind the gym and get it out of your systems! ...

[Mikes455Wagon]

Originally Posted by grandville455

P.S David and Cliff... You two need to duke it out behind the gym and get it out of your systems! ...

No doubt. Glad we live the calm and simple life around here Darby.....

[Cliff R]

No problem on my end guys, we have freely posted all of our results on these Forums for many years. There is ALWAYS someone with ZERO experience at every level taking a shot at me. I don't know why or understand where all the nonesense from this particular source comes from, but I do know for sure that this particular person is being prompted (fed information) from an outside source. He's even been stupid enough to copy/paste some of it. When he re-writes it on his own, it's FULL of grammer and spelling mistakes, other responses are completely error free, indicating they have a different origin.

I'll give you 3 guess as to the source, and the first 2 do NOT count!

It really matters not in the big scheme of things. I'm out there on the front lines every single day working my ars off to help folks out, at every level with their Pontiac powered project. I am NOT brand specific in any way, and have tried and tested countless parts in the effort to find out what really works and what doesn't.

Since I have pointed out a few times that the XE cams can and often will come up considerably short on power production for the combination of parts, each and every time I've had folks attack the messenger, completely disregarding the information and results in question.

This is done more to throw folks off track, than to help the rest of us find out WHY these things happen.

I got a call yesterday from a customer who yanked out an XE cam because it did NOT work at any level for his project, and came up considerably short on his intended goals. Got this email from another, neither of which will post on these topics due to the continuing attacks from the appointed defenders of these particular parts:

There are so many out there that have no idea what it is like to live with a motor that is just a turd. While all of our Dairy Queen's have dried up in this area, the damn thing had a hell of a time squealing the tires leaving the local Culver's! So, the cam isn't even good for that!

Anyway, David seems like the type that can' t or refuses to listen to reason or possibly acknowledge that there is anything better than what his trusty builder sold him. Unortunately, XXX doesn't do a lot of dynoing so he really is just going on what people report to him and has little basis of comparison. However, if his reports are from guys that have no clue what a fast car is all about, then his customers think that they have one smooth ride. Funny thing is that these guys are so territorial when it comes to parts on their cars. Hell, if something doesn't work well for me, I will tell everyone that it is crap. No problem there....etc, etc, etc.

In any case, I have NEVER once said that all of the XE cammed engines in existance have issues. What I have said, is that we have continued to see a LOT of specific examples where they came up considerably short on power, with power clearly ending early in the rpm range.

Pontiac engines are not the only ones to have found this out, the Buick board went thru a similiar deal a few years back when a very well known engine builder tried them and came up WAY short on power production, then went public with the information. He was chastised in a similiar fashion as I have been here.

In any case, folks need to know that there are some folks are doing well with these parts, like Mike's Wagon in this particular thread. They also need to know when someone stuffs an XE cam into a 455 Super Duty engine and it quits at 4900rpm's, and is down at least 50ft lbs torque at 5000rpms compared to near identical engine set-ups using different cams with about the same advertised specifications.

What has happened here with all the BS that RRD and others throw at the messengers each and every time these facts are pointed out, is that most folks will NOT post or comment at any level on these threads with their less than desirable results from those cams. Can you blame them, who would want to get caught up in all this nonesense? I have to take considerable critisism from a guy who imported from across the ocean ONE engine, and it makes enough power to blast his car up and down the road with some authority. Never dyno'd it, never had it to the track, but estimates it can run 200mph with enough down hill stretch of road and a nice tail wind....come on guys, a REALITY check is in order here....don't ya think?......Cliff

[69Goat1]

Cliff - how did this XE 274 iron head combo run as well as it did?

How does my and 3 other examples of the XE 284 run as well as they do... if we are all shifting at 4800-5000 RPM then this would be the holy grail cam for the traditional enthusiast that thinks the Pontiac engine automatically self destructs at 5200 RPM because you can run faster than the others without having to use those damned rhoads lifters everyone I have personally known that used them have thought were crap in their engines... I never personally used them simply because I don't like leaky lifters...

FWIW - we have a fellow over in Tulsa named Mike that is running a 60919 and KRE D-ports in a 64 Tempest that is hung in the low 12's with a Performer RPM and Holley 850 combo... I think the only one that hasn't put multiple car lengths on him with an XE 284 so far is my cousin Mike but only because they haven't lined up and all the combo's I am speaking of are iron head combos... If we throw the E-head combos in then we turn it into multiple bus lengths.

And Cliff - I do have track experience...

[ponjohn]

I would suspect that cars with XE FT have a stiffer valve spring than the others, mine included.

My view on this has been; you tell your cylinder head guy spec it for hft at X lift and he does. You then choose an XE HFT with aggressive lobe ramps and now the engine falls flat.

It would be very beneficial to either:

A. take an XE cammed car and replace the springs.
B. take a combo that had an XE HFT and replace it with a similar grind from another company.

I am about to embark on the latter. I run an XE284 that went flat at 4700. Car went 11.98 @ 109.5 @ 3680.

I spec'd a nearly identical cam using Symetric lobes from Bullet. The timing events are less than 1/2 a degree difference at one point.

NO idea when it will be back together.

What would you rather see put it, 60919 or nearly identical to XE284?

[Cliff R]

"Cliff - how did this XE 274 iron head combo run as well as it did?"

It's the vehicle set-up (full race) complimented by decent power from a big cid engine, ie Pontiac 455. The combination leaves really hard, which makes running good times a lot easier even if the engine were stone stock 455, how hard is that to figure out?

For some reason that I can't figure out, the same points/examples are brought up here again and again? They are NOT examples of great success, at least IMHO, just decent examples of average success with those cams. The numbers don't show me anything better, if as good as what we make with similiar sized cams from other manufacturers.

I can buy the Crane 234/244/112, Ultradyne 231/239/112, Crower 60919, or Melling 041 grind, and make right at 450-460 hp in a very "basic" 455 build with 220-230cfm head flow (iron heads).

Any of those cams will be near, at or just over 500hp with KRE 85cc aluminum "D" port heads, unported.

Any of those cams will also make right at 500hp with unported 87cc Edelbrock heads.

If the owner of the vehicle has any clue as to how to set up the vehicle to use the power, they will be in the 11's with any of the 500hp engines at 3700-4000lbs race weight, and high 11's to low 12's with the iron heads.

We built and dyno'd the early KRE 455 pump gas street engine that they offer. It was a plain old 455 build, zero deck, with untouched 87cc Edelbrock heads. The Crower 60919 cam was installed, and it cranked out 505hp/551tq. It went into a 71 Firebird, and ran 11.50's at 118mph at the track and was driven back and forth the day it posted those times. No big feat, but it clearly shows that 500hp will run 11's if your car can use the power.

So if/when pull specific examples from my memory banks, as the day we were waiting in line for my turn for the dyno, while they thrash away on a 455 with ported 7K3 heads, XE284 camshaft, single plane intake, 850cfm carb, and can BARELY make 430hp/499tq......it's worth mentioning here.

It's also worth mentioning that we have ONE customer with 10 to 1 compression and iron heads, mildly ported, running an XE274 camshaft making 480hp and over 550tq. So not all of the examples I've seen are as bad as the two other dyno sheets we had sent here where the exact same combination of parts barely made 400hp and were both DONE at 4900rpm's.

Darn it, there I go again, listing DIRECT examples that I didn't build here, so it's 2nd or 3rd hand information, just like the Super Duty 455 talked about on here recently that was DONE at 4900rpm's with the XE274 camshaft....and made a LOT less power and torque than the one we built here, and it was STONE STOCK everyplace, except for being zero decked and used a 230/242/112 cam of my own choosing.

IF the 455 SD I built would have quit at 4900rpm's with a [email protected]" cam of my choosing, I would have pulled the cam out and thrown it out back of the dyno shop for the dairy cows to piss on.....then put a REAL cam in it!....LOL.....Cliff

[Mikes455Wagon]

FWIW-If I was building a engine differently than my Father has built this one for me, then the XE cam probably would not be my choice. If there was head work involved and I wanted max performance then a bigger and different cam would be in store. My combination could be easily duplicated from two motors. A 455 short block with a set of 62 heads with good springs, then add the cam I am running and the intake after gasket matching the heads. The only reason my engine has a decent set of rods and pistons is basically because it was basically an insurance policy. We wanted a motor that we could thrash weekend after weekend after weekend and just change the oil in for possibly the next 5 years or 10 years or whenever I want to go faster. With that said, by only twisting the motor 5200-5300, part longevity increases too. There is no doubt you can twist parts harder than we are and make more power, but that really wasn't our goal. If the car would have run 8.0 in the 1/8th and done it consistently, we really would have been content because its a bracket car. In the future we plan to try some tweaking and experiment with 1.6 rockers also to give us somewhat of an idea on the lift (basically if it likes more or not). I can say from testing a 'off the shelf' torque converter vs. the Continental, that was worth a lot as I have the time slips to show it (1.80 60 ft vs 1.59). Are there other cams out there that may work with our stock heads better.....probably are, I have no doubt. What we fell into seems to work well and sometimes you just fall into something that works. Would someone else drop this into their street car and run what we did? I kinda doubt it. My car has suspension work done, am running slicks, has a 3500 lb weight that is lighter than most stuff that is tipping the scales around 3800-4000 lbs. All these are factors into the times we ran. Just the weight would be worth a few tenths compared to the same motor in another car. We aren't setting any world records here just hoping to build a respectable motor that runs decent. Also, something that Cliff mentions with XE cams is the detonation factor. Our compression is high and it only gets 110 fuel so in our car this is a mood point but for someone building a street motor, it is something to consider. FWIW-the guy parked beside us at the track last Friday night was running a 383 Chevy that sounded wicked when rev'd and cleaned out, AFR heads and who knows what else and couldn't get past a 8.50....then he came over looking at my car wondering what we did and I think looking for some fancy parts that aren't under the hood of my car. If my car dips into the 11's next weekend at VMP then I will be thrilled as I see lots of cars with better parts not always running that. If it run's 12.0s then by the time Norwalk gets here it will be in the elevens because there is weight on the car that I can remove. Speaking of which, Darby you coming to Norwalk? I wanna see that thing run in person and tell my buddies "hey watch this thing run 11's and have them look at me like I am smoking something!" But in any case, have a goal for what you want your motor to do. Talk to reputable Pontiac engine builders and let them know your concerns and they well set you in the direction you need to go.

[grandville455]

Now Mike How did u know I would be reading this ... I wish I could make the trip ,but not going to Happen! ... One year I hope too.. Maybe when's its running thens? lmao!...Their is no reason why I can't see u running 11's unless the air is crappy?. I really like your conv and what it is doing for you. What were your rpms thru the traps? If u can put a camera in the car to watch the tach like i did.. that way we can see what the conv is doing on flash and shifts

[Mikes455Wagon]

Darby, I am actually using a VDO comp eliminator tach with the playback option. Problem is I still need to figure out how to get it to record. You apparently need a freaking Masters Degree in something to use the dang thing. I will try to get it working for this weekend at VMP. That will give me good quarter mile data and what I am going through the traps at.