[tom s]

MAYBE cost less than a real set!MAYBE!Tom

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by tom s

MAYBE cost less than a real set!MAYBE!Tom

MAYBE...... The last two pairs of RAIV heads I purchased came from members on this sight. They both had professional port jobs and cost $2500 plus shipping. Another six hundred to freshen them up and they were ready to bolt on. Very "authentic" looking also.


Your hobby car situation over the years would've been drastically different had you "waited" for someone to make aftermarket RAV heads..... Sometimes ya just have to git'r done

[BILL BOWMAN1]

Since we’re talking about appearance. I just never liked the look of the E heads, always liked the Wenzlers better. My next motor will probably be boosted, and these new round ports will probably be part of that build.

[Formulajones]

Sure wish a pair of real 614's fell in my lap for $2500 and didn't need another $2000 at a machine shop. Fact is Tom that's been pretty much the scenario for the last 10 years I've looked around for a set.
The new aluminum pieces will in fact be cheaper than I can do a set of 614's for, that's just the reality of the situation.

No way in hell I'm tossing a set of 614's on one of my engines as is just because a seller says "oh they're great and ready to go" You're talking about a 60 year old set of used up heads. I've been down that road many times and to re do a set of iron heads to meet my expectations on a fresh build with all new parts is an easy $1500 to $2000 right now.

We aren't talking about knurling valve guides and reusing 60 year old valves here. That's not how we do things around here.

So if a set shows up, all fresh, new guides, new valves, (and I'm not talking the cheap crap out there) new springs, cut for positive seals, and new seats with a nice valve job, and haven't had the crap milled out of them and someone only wants $2500 for them........Show them to me I'll buy them all day long. They'd still have to be checked over for proper valve guide clearance and make sure the valve job is cut round and seals well as well as setting up the springs properly. So they are never a bolt on deal. I'd have to buy as is and pay to have that checked and most likely touched up anyway. Hell I do that with every set of new aluminum heads I buy, but they at least have quality springs, quality 1 piece stainless valves and all new hardened seats and positive seals all done. At the most the valve job needs touched up with a better machine but you at least you know what you're getting into.

Yeah, these new aluminum heads are going to be cheaper, guaranteed.

[PAUL K]

Anyone know what Don is talking about?

[Skip Fix]

I paid $1500 in 1988 for my RAIV new SR bare heads! Back before we had aftermarket options.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

I paid $1500 in 1988 for my RAIV new SR bare heads! Back before we had aftermarket options.

Probably a good price at the time. When Pontiac discontinued them, I heard a "connected" Pontiac guy purchased the over stock. They're out there and always have been. They also, have always sold for a decent amount of money. Not long ago, a member here took months to sell a correct professionally built RAIV long block at a very reasonable price. It was built with NOS virgin heads. Perfect opportunity for anyone wanting to clone a 1970 model Pontiac. I kinda regret not pulling the trigger, but I already built a correct RAIV for my TA.

[J.C.you]

Just sold set 722s 5k ported ready bolt on, set up for roller for reference.
I’m sure Don can put any size valves within reason in the heads, making moot of reliefs question.
I had small valves put in HPs

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Anyone know what Don is talking about?

Not sure, But why would anyone of us not believe in what Don is doing ?
But Don is going to make a RAII head ? Nice.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Anyone know what Don is talking about?

Maybe he should come on here and answer legitimate concerns about if the valve spacing, location and diameter will affect the ability of potential buyers to bolt them into an already built shortblock with common off the shelf Ross or whatever brand popular flattop forged pistons. That’s probably half of his potential customers right there.

Basing his opinions about the PY forum members comments and opinions on his new offerings using information from second or third hand sources and then criticizing the PY forum community for expressing their opinions and concerns might not be the best approach.

My only criticism was they’re not going to look enough like a factory head for those who are looking for heads that closely match the look of OEM Pontiac heads. Not saying they’re not a good product in any way.

People who were hopeful that they’d look like real RAII or RAIV heads or whatever D-port flavor they’re interested in aren’t ever going to get what they’ve been wishing for. It’s easy to understand that nobody is going to the expense to make different molds for each particular head, there’s no profit in that clearly.

You have guys here thinking somehow that they’d have to be priced substantially below the current aluminum offerings from KRE or Edelbrock. Ain’t gonna happen guys, simple economics. So there goes that pool of potential customers who weren’t the target to begin with.

Again I’m sure they’ll be a well engineered part and an asset to the hobby.

Just because people have legitimate questions and concerns or share their opinions good or bad about a new product doesn’t make them haters.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

Just sold set 722s 5k ported ready bolt on, set up for roller for reference.
I’m sure Don can put any size valves within reason in the heads, making moot of reliefs question.
I had small valves put in HPs

Not sure I follow you JC, you don't think it's going to make a difference if these heads will bolt on without modifying ones existing pistons?

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Not sure, But why would anyone of us not believe in what Don is doing ?
But Don is going to make a RAII head ? Nice.

Maybe because his stated valve sizes and offsets won't work with the vast majority of existing pistons?


He just posted that a stock RAIV head flows 200 CFM on the intake side and 180 on the exhaust.. You going to question that or roll with it?

[Skip Fix]

I know mine flowed more than 200 "virgin"!Tulip valve hurt it some flat D port valve picked it up 5-10%. With an NMCA Top Stock class legal pocket clean up and gasket match they go about 255.

I know Edelbrock has moved the exhaust valve-I want to think 0.060-0.070. Enough where you had to check exhaust valve clearance in TRW piston valve reliefs. Not sure if High Ports are the same as Edelbrocks and can use the same pistons.

[Steve C.]

Skip, It is my understanding on the Edelbrock head the center-to-center valve spacing increased from stock 1.98" to 2.030" (.050").




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[Baron Von Zeppelin]

McCarthy's published data from 1991 HPP magazine test was
@.700 lift = 200cfm intake / 165 exhaust on a pair of 1970 #614 IV's

Wallace's site has footnote to use correction factor of 1.37 for 28" of water.
That would be around 275cfm intake and 225cfm exh

Usually I see people say 220-230 cfm intake approximate on IV's
No idea who is right

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Also from McCarthy test
@.500 lift = 200cfm intake and 150cfm exhaust.


PY member just did a faithful stock spec type rebuild on a 70 IV for a real IV TA resto.
Made 398 HP on a dyno through manifolds.
The 200cfm number doesn't seem too far off on a 400hp engine.
with a cup of coffee and a donut.

[Steve C.]

http://www.wallaceracing.com/calcdchg.php

Airflow Conversion Chart
https://centuryperformance.com/tech-...version-chart/


"All testing was done at 12 inches Hg, and airflow figures were taken at valve lift increments of .100 up to .600 inch (higher in some instances)"

http://www.wallaceracing.com/ultimat...oogle_vignette



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[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Also from McCarthy test
@.500 lift = 200cfm intake and 150cfm exhaust.


PY member just did a faithful stock spec type rebuild on a 70 IV for a real IV TA resto.
Made 398 HP on a dyno through manifolds.
The 200cfm number doesn't seem too far off on a 400hp engine.
with a cup of coffee and a donut.

Pete's numbers were consistently accurate printed in HPP. He did us all a huge favor. The specified numbers are difficult to compare to any other flow tests due to an issue with the equipment.

Pete's numbers 200/150 show a 75% intake to exhaust ratio. That pretty close to other stock RAIV flow tests.

Don's 200/180 shows a 90% I/E ratio ..... Something is askew with Don's numbers..... It raises a flag. Not saying they're not accurate but for some reason the intake flow is extremely low, or the exhaust high. More information is needed.

398 HP seems like legitimate numbers. Your 200 CFM number is most likely coming from total flow through the induction system. That usually needs to be considered on a street build since the the port is usually not the most restricted part of the intake tract.

SuperFlow offers this equation to estimate power; induction system total CFM @ 28" x .598 x .43 x the number of cylinders. If you plug in your 200 CFM number I think your close to the 398 number.... With headers he'd probably be right there.


PONTIAC'STTFMF's!!!

[Steve C.]

"My head flows more rats than your head"

A tid bit for interest, and one that relates to Paul's comment....

" The specified numbers are difficult to compare to any other flow tests due to an issue with the equipment."

The issue was a mouse nest, or rats nest depending on the story, that was inside Jerry Goodale's flow bench at the time of Pete's cylinder head testing.
Unknown at the time it affected the flow numbers. That said, If the nest was in there for the duration, then the numbers were at least relative to each other.


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[Steve C.]

Another important comment from Paul....

"Your 200 CFM number is most likely coming from total flow through the induction system"

And related. Air Flow Research developed a formula based on air flow. It predicts a normally aspirated engine's horsepower potential based on intake-system airflow.
It is based on the net cfm airflow delivered at the valve thru the carb, intake manifold and cylinder head. Not the cylinder head cfm flow itself. The formula.....

Horsepower = 0.25714 x cfm at 28" x number of cylinders

There are some caveats involved. Actually reaching the predicted power level requires the engine to have the right compression, the right cam, a tuned exhaust, and a nonrestrictive carb and intake manifold.
The combined lift generated by the cam lobe and rocker arm should equal the observed lift on the flow bench needed to achieve the desired intake port flow, plus a good exhaust port flow. Etc, etc.

( Information provided in this post does not represent any endorsement of the formula stated and is offered for general interest only )



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