[David Holmberg]

I think changes in technology (cam spec's and valve springs) and head porting have come a long way in 17 years.

Every other brand has improved in 17 years. Top fuel is running less nitro now and still considerably quicker and faster.

Marcella took the Pro Ports and turned them into a working product in 7 months using knowledge he's learned over the years.

NASCAR, same deal. Same basic rules and horsepower and RPM considerably higher.

We all know the CV1 can do it, most are just waiting for someone to show it.

[Bnick166]

THAT'S the point I was tryin' to make. All it takes is the RIGHT person to put in the time and $$ and the results will follow. Hasn't happened for the CV-1's YET. Butler went in the 7's ten years ago?....SOOO it took somebody 8 years (1995 to 2003) to make that kind of a commitment to the E-heads before they performed at that level.

[Tom Vaught]

You can put a "race horse" Saddle and Blanket on a Mule, but will the Mule ever win the Kentucky Derby? (No matter what Owner, Trainer, Rider, works with the Mule.)

Now the owner might make a lot of money taking it to the State Fair Races and racing against horses that were just plain slow (so the crowd could cheer) but the owner has an ulterior motive there, making money, not winning the Kentucky Derby race.

Just Saying, When you have money to spend, you can make anything go down the track.

Do not see Marcella or Leech spending THEIR money in that venue or doing the job without getting paid for their knowledge.

Tom Vaught

[Bnick166]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

You can put a "race horse" Saddle and Blanket on a Mule, but will the Mule ever win the Kentucky Derby? (No matter what Owner, Trainer, Rider, works with the Mule.)

Now the owner might make a lot of money taking it to the State Fair Races and racing against horses that were just plain slow (so the crowd could cheer) but the owner has an ulterior motive there, making money, not winning the Kentucky Derby race.

Just Saying, When you have money to spend, you can make anything go down the track.

Do not see Marcella or Leech spending THEIR money in that venue or doing the job without getting paid for their knowledge.

Tom Vaught

So what YOUR tryin' to say is....if you have a lot of money....
I thought John said that wasn't really TRUE.

[Tom Vaught]

John M has worked for several Race Shops in the Detroit Area over the years, so at each shop he acquired knowledge and skills. Now he can do a lot of the work himself: Porting work, welding, fabrication, trades with others who have different skills. He LEVERAGES his talents with others. Smart man.

But can the average guy get the same results for the same money? Probably not.
So yes, John can say that he has little money in his race deal but I would say he has a lot of "Blood and Sweat Equity" in his race deal.

Just look at his LSM block lightening deal and price that one operation at LSM.

Tom Vaught

[Bnick166]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

But can the average guy get the same results for the same money? Probably not.
Tom Vaught

Tom,
What AVERAGE guy would throw absurd amounts of money at a car that will never appreciate fast enough to recap at least a small portion of his money back. Certainley not the avarage guy. You are not (and apparently nobody else) getting the point I'm trying to make. John and Mike have both stated that the head can make serious power. That is all of the confirmation that I need. I never mentioned anything about the cost per results. It has been stated that to build a competive race engine...all costs will remain pretty much equal (give or take). Soooo, If somebody were to take a set of CV-1's, an EFI intake and a couple of handfulls of money to say... John or Gabby...it is your contention that neither of them could make a package that would WOW Most Pontiac guys?

Interesting.

John and Mike have BOTH stated that they could do it and I believe them.

It'll take time and money......the length of time will depend on how long it takes somebody to pony up their money.
The new E-head has been developed into just such a head seamingly overnight....by John. Yet I haven't seen anyone else post on their trials and tribulations on that head. Nope....ya ain't gonna hear those stories from the average guy. you'll only hear such stories from dedicated people with a lot of disposable income or the ability to do much of the work themselves OR the ability to horsetrade said services to their advantage.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

Tom, What AVERAGE guy would throw absurd amounts of money at a car that will never appreciate fast enough to recap at least a small portion of his money back."

I guess I am not getting the point. When did building a fast engine EVER involve recouping your investment? (forget about the time/labor factor).

Originally Posted by Bnick166

John and Mike have both stated that the head can make serious power. That is all of the confirmation that I need.

Let me fix that quote for you. "John M, Gaby, and Mike L have ALL stated that they could have made serious power IF they had been allowed to change things in the Head and I believe them." John M DID change stuff on MJM421's heads and the car is a very nice street/track performer.

Originally Posted by Bnick166

It'll take time and money......the length of time will depend on how long it takes somebody to pony up their money. The new E-head has been developed into just such a head seamingly overnight....by John. Yet I haven't seen anyone else post on their trials and tribulations on that head. Nope....ya ain't gonna hear those stories from the average guy. you'll only hear such stories from dedicated people with a lot of disposable income or the ability to do much of the work themselves OR the ability to horsetrade said services to their advantage.

The cow is already out of the barn on that deal. Some People had a chance to use that capability (John M, Gaby, Mike L) and did not take the offer. It is what it is.

All of this banter does not answer the most basic question?

WHERE ARE THE 1000 HP+ ENGINES USING THESE PARTS?

Tom Vaught

ps I agree with Brian H, have the boys post up that 174 mph slip while you are at it.

[Bnick166]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I guess I am not getting the point. When did building a fast engine EVER involve recouping your investment? (forget about the time/labor factor). .

Tom...You stated earlier about "the average guy". The "average guy" would want a reasonable return for his money. "average guys" don't build and/or pay somebody to build a race engine.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Let me fix that quote for you. "John M, Gaby, and Mike L have ALL stated that they could have made serious power IF they had been allowed to change things in the Head and I believe them." John M DID change stuff on MJM421's heads and the car is a very nice street/track performer.

If you re-read the post....both Mike and John stated that they "could" do it......not past tense. Which goes to prove my point. If I were to give them a handful of my money...they "could" do it (presently)

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

WHERE ARE THE 1000 HP+ ENGINES USING THESE PARTS?.

Answer.....Nobody has done it yet.....but it CAN be done.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

ps I agree with Brian H, have the boys post up that 174 mph slip while you are at it.

Only boys I have are my testicles.......not sure what your eluding to there.

[john marcella]

Well since my name is getting lumped in here, I will go on the record and say..............I believe I can make well over 1000 hp with the CV head with only porting and maybe a little weld, no moving anything. But I would also say that I could do better if I moved things around. JMO

Do I think it is the best head for Pontiacs=NO
2nd best =NO / modified(my way) =YES !!!!!!!!!

Again -JMO

[David Holmberg]

Tom, "Duplication costs".

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

Tom, "Duplication costs".

Will work for me, David!

Point is that is water over the dam, they had a chance twice. If using Gaby and John for their stuff.

Tom Vaught

[David Holmberg]

Anyone that would turn down help from Gaby or John isn't looking at the bigger picture.

[GREATGTO]

Yeah those pro ports are just flying off edelbrocks shelves ever since John worked his set.

How many other guys are running pro ports?

Sounds like a great idea to have John take cv1's, move everything around only to sell the same amount as his pro ports, brilliant. Did you guys know Jim is in business to actually make money? Not appease 1% if that of the pontiac community.

How much would these magic man cv1's cost? Here is an idea, why don't you guys take up a collection and have John design you a canted valve head and see if you can get a return on your investment?

[mjm421]

Originally Posted by GREATGTO

Yeah those pro ports are just flying off edelbrocks shelves ever since John worked his set.

How many other guys are running pro ports?

Sounds like a great idea to have John take cv1's, move everything around only to sell the same amount as his pro ports, brilliant. Did you guys know Jim is in business to actually make money? Not appease 1% if that of the pontiac community.

How much would these magic man cv1's cost? Here is an idea, why don't you guys take up a collection and have John design you a canted valve head and see if you can get a return on your investment?

How many "other" people are running 8.30's so soon in their program n/a @3000lbs.?

[GREATGTO]

Originally Posted by mjm421

How many "other" people are running 8.30's so soon in their program n/a @3000lbs.?

The point and the question is how much will it cost and how many will sell?
no
doubt
John could do it. Like I said, how many pro ports have sold because of John efforts?
My quess would be probably zero because of cost and amount of work that it takes to get there.

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by GREATGTO

The point and the question is how much will it cost and how many will sell?
no
doubt
John could do it. Like I said, how many pro ports have sold because of John efforts?
My quess would be probably zero because of cost and amount of work that it takes to get there.

The offer I made Jim would not have cost him much at all (no money , just some parts) . In return I said I would give him back a complete model head with complete cad model as well, valve profile, and valve job profile. And he would have a part # for Jesel rocker set up.
However I told him that it would require some core box changes. Not for my heads, I know a welder. But it would have taken a intake core, ex core and a water jacket core change and a modification to the core under the valve cover.
All of this is not cheep.
And as MJM puts it, no one likes being told their baby is ugly.
I made the offer because I wanted to help and I wanted something good for myself that I was in control of the design. Because there are no designs for Pontiacs that I am happy with. I chose my Pro Ports only because I was "content" with the valve placement and it had more than enough material to work with, so it seamed like the least amount of work to get were I wanted to be.

[GTOGEORGE]

I hate to step on Tom's shoe here but I'm thinking Marty's car was a little heavy.......not nowhere as heavy as mine but around 2600-2800lbs.


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by john marcella

The offer I made Jim would not have cost him much at all (no money , just some parts) . In return I said I would give him back a complete model head with complete cad model as well, valve profile, and valve job profile. And he would have a part # for Jesel rocker set up.
However I told him that it would require some core box changes. Not for my heads, I know a welder. But it would have taken a intake core, ex core and a water jacket core change and a modification to the core under the valve cover.
All of this is not cheep.
And as MJM puts it, no one likes being told their baby is ugly.
I made the offer because I wanted to help and I wanted something good for myself that I was in control of the design. Because there are no designs for Pontiacs that I am happy with. I chose my Pro Ports only because I was "content" with the valve placement and it had more than enough material to work with, so it seamed like the least amount of work to get were I wanted to be.

I know John M. can fix stuff himself. Quote by John M: "I know a welder. "

But here is my point again, read what John M. posted: "it would have taken a intake core, ex core and a water jacket core change and a modification to the core under the valve cover.

INTAKE CORE, EXHAUST CORE, WATER JACKET CORE, AND MODS TO THE CORE UNDER THE VALVE COVER. (Seems pretty simple to me that the whole head pretty much needed to be completely reworked to make the 1000++ hp John M. was talking about.

So I really do believe that John M is saying that the head could make Big Power WITH some serious design changes.

Tom Vaught

[GREATGTO]

You know what my advice was to Jim when I first met him?I said you should have made a head for a ford or a chevy, not a pontiac, just because of how ''those people' are.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

So what YOUR tryin' to say is....if you have a lot of money....
I thought John said that wasn't really TRUE.

Money is only one side of this...it takes hard work, dedication, and at bare minimum enough smarts to understand how it "should" come together. As well as seeking out the right people to help you reach you goals.

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

Anyone that would turn down help from Gaby or John isn't looking at the bigger picture.

CAN I GET AN AMEN BROTHER HOLMBERG?!!

Originally Posted by GREATGTO

You know what my advice was to Jim when I first met him?I said you should have made a head for a ford or a chevy, not a pontiac, just because of how ''those people' are.

You are one of those people to...just sayin