[mgarblik]

I certainly understand Paul's point about the pistons. Having to make some valve pocket corrections to fit new heads is certainly not a show stopper for me. But I have a Bridgeport and a BHJ super nice piston vise. So once set-up, could cut 8 pistons in about an hour. About 1 hour to set-up and an hour to cut. However, if I was just changing heads and not even pulling the engine, this could be a deal breaker. Or even worse, not checking and just throwing the heads on expecting them to work. I do feel confident Don would have detailed information about what is required to have success with the heads once ready to sell them. I am sure he wants a successful outcome as much as anyone.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

It seem people want this head to just be plug and play.

So I am just curious what would you be replacing if you bought these heads

1) Basically stock or close to stock Cast Iron Heads

2) Highly ported Cast Iron Heads

3) Someone else's Aluminum Head

Stan

Hi Stan, that's an interesting question. I'd consider a pair for my 70 TA. They'd replace the current 614 heads that are on a fresh engine, so they'd need to be a bolt on deal. It would be nice if they'd accept the factory head bolts.

[Dragncar]

Would there be any meaningful performance advantage to the way Don originally wanted to make them vs bolt on ?
If it does not add up to a hill of beans make them bolt on, all accessory bolt holes and accept factory head bolts.
One would think that sales wise, he would sell far more bolt on.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Would there be any meaningful performance advantage to the way Don originally wanted to make them vs bolt on ?
If it does not add up to a hill of beans make them bolt on, all accessory bolt holes and accept factory head bolts.
One would think that sales wise, he would sell far more bolt on.

That's exactly what I've been thinking.

[b-man]

What would be the point of having them mimic the looks of a factory head if they’re not targeted for the street performance crowd that for the most part would want a bolt-on head that doesn’t require special pistons and also accepts factory accessory brackets?

It’s nice that some factory casting numbers will be available on these, but if that’s just a novelty on top of a more race oriented offering I guess I’m missing something.

At least half of the buyers will want to bolt these on their already built shortblock that are already running stock or modified iron heads either round or D-port. People even like to bolt aluminum heads onto completely stock short blocks, whether that’s a good idea or not.

Yeah I get that hot rodders should be expected to modify their stuff in order to use certain parts, but a majority don’t want to tear down their engines to extract the pistons and machine the valve pockets just to bolt on some cylinder heads. These really should be offered as a bolt-on to accommodate the wants and needs of the majority of potential customers.

If making money is the aim then aim for your target audience.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Would there be any meaningful performance advantage to the way Don originally wanted to make them vs bolt on ?
If it does not add up to a hill of beans make them bolt on, all accessory bolt holes and accept factory head bolts.
One would think that sales wise, he would sell far more bolt on.

Originally Posted by jhein

That's exactly what I've been thinking.

Not sure exactly "how much" power moving the valves around would be worth. It's usually used for top shelf class builds with restrictions on the heads looking for that last ten horsepower. Edelbrock moved the exhaust valve over .050 to allow the use of a larger intake valve in the stock location. Just that one move caused issues with Edelbrock's test engine used for the development of the Victor manifold. The exhaust valves nipped the side of the pocket.

I believe I mentioned this earlier but a 2.11 valve will easily support 800+ HP without being moved.

A 1.66 exhaust will easily support 900+ HP

Over 1200hp has been made using standard Edelbrock valve locations.

IDK Don's reasoning for the valve locations and sizes he chose. I don't want to speculate. He's a smart man and I'm sure he has a specific buyers he wants to target.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by b-man

What would be the point of having them mimic the looks of a factory head if they’re not targeted for the street performance crowd that for the most part would want a bolt-on head that doesn’t require special pistons and also accepts factory accessory brackets?

It’s nice that some factory casting numbers will be available on these, but if that’s just a novelty on top of a more race oriented offering I guess I’m missing something.

At least half of the buyers will want to bolt these on their already built shortblock that are already running stock or modified iron heads either round or D-port. People even like to bolt aluminum heads into completely stock short blocks, whether that’s a good idea or not.

Yeah I get that hot rodders should be expected to modify their stuff in order to use certain parts, but a majority don’t want to tear down their engines to extract the pistons and machine the valve pockets just to bolt on some cylinder heads. These really should be offered as a bolt-on to accommodate the wants and needs of the majority of potential customers.

If making money is the aim then aim for your target audience.

If in fact these heads flow the rumored 300 cfm. Then IMO someone replacing a stock head without doing any other changes will not be happy.

Stan

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

If in fact these heads flow the rumored 300 cfm. Then IMO someone replacing a stock head without doing any other changes will not be happy.

Stan

Exactly why I wrote this in my post that you quoted:

“ People even like to bolt aluminum heads onto completely stock short blocks, whether that’s a good idea or not.”

And, there’s not a single thing wrong with that. The same heads that someone might first use on a stock shortblock can be used later on for a better build.

Just because they’re a 300 cfm head doesn’t mean they won’t run, of course not up to their full potential but they’re going to be fine.

Kinda like the LS3 that has a 320 cfm head as delivered making 430 hp. Just by adding headers and a better cam you end up with 500 to 550 horsepower because the heads have the capability to get you there in the future.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by b-man

Exactly why I wrote this in my post that you quoted:

“ People even like to bolt aluminum heads onto completely stock short blocks, whether that’s a good idea or not.”

And, there’s not a single thing wrong with that. The same heads that someone might first use on a stock shortblock can be used later on for a better build.

Just because they’re a 300 cfm head doesn’t mean they won’t run, of course not up to their full potential but they’re going to be fine.

Kinda like the LS3 that has a 320 cfm head as delivered making 430 hp. Just by adding headers and a better cam you end up with 500 to 550 horsepower because the heads have the capability to get you there in the future.

I only had a rough idea what the LS cam specs were. This what I got when I did a google search.

Stock LS3 Cam Specs: 204/211 duration, 0.551/0.525 lift, 117 lobe separation angle, 1.7:1 rocker arm ratio.

Stan

[jhein]

He's got a new video out that I haven't had a chance to watch entirely yet, just watched a bit of the beginning. What he was saying is that even though they flow 300+, that his design still allows for good velocity at lower flow rates. At least that's what I understood (?). But, I'm not an expert on that and I didn't watch the whole video.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I only had a rough idea what the LS cam specs were. This what I got when I did a google search.

Stock LS3 Cam Specs: 204/211 duration, 0.551/0.525 lift, 117 lobe separation angle, 1.7:1 rocker arm ratio.

Stan

Exactly what mine has in it.

So it’s an engine that is cammed for low speed efficiency and still runs readily up the 6600 redline because it has plenty of head flow.

Just adding headers gets you up to 480 horsepower.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I only had a rough idea what the LS cam specs were. This what I got when I did a google search.

Stock LS3 Cam Specs: 204/211 duration, 0.551/0.525 lift, 117 lobe separation angle, 1.7:1 rocker arm ratio.

Stan

The bigger cam core is a huge advantage for the LS engines. It allows a lot of lift with short duration.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by b-man

Exactly what mine has in it.

So it’s an engine that is cammed for low speed efficiency and still runs readily up the 6600 redline because it has plenty of head flow.

Just adding headers gets you up to 480 horsepower.

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

If in fact these heads flow the rumored 300 cfm. Then IMO someone replacing a stock head without doing any other changes will not be happy.

Stan

Above is my original post. I didn't say the DCI heads could not be made to work. But how many stock head Pontiac have a cam like the LS3? High lift short duration.

Stan

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Above is my original post. I didn't say the DCI heads could not be made to work. But how many stock head Pontiac have a cam like the LS3? High lift short duration.

Stan

Few to none I’m sure.

But quite a few have something in the range of a RAIV cam.

Many Pontiac street engines are just like that, and many will buy a bolt on aluminum head that’s reasonably in line with the cost of ported iron heads. The cost to rebuild iron heads properly and then the porting work added to that is within a few hundred dollars of new aluminum heads.

A good number of engines out there right now have the heavy TRW or Sealed Power forgings in them hanging on stock rods or maybe inexpensive forged rods. A new aluminum head that will work with that is what’s going to sell in my opinion.

So whatever Don decides he’s going to market is his choice not mine or anyone else’s, let’s hope he sells a lot of them.

[Stan Weiss]

If we want to compare with an LS.

I have a Audie CPP report from a Tooly Stage 2 cam

279/292 @ 0.006" | 227.6/235.2 @ 0.050" | 0.36178"/0.33859" lobe lift | 0.61502"/0.57560" At Valve with 1.7:1 | 112.8 LSA | 109.8 ICL/ 115.8 ECL

Stan

[b-man]

The point I’m trying to make is this head should bolt onto the average Pontiac guy’s shortblock.

Who gives a damn whether or not that 300 cfm head would be disappointing or not, it’s up to the buyer to decide to cam it, induct it and exhaust it to get the most out of it.

Or not.

If it’s useable for the larger spectrum of potential buyers it’s going to be a winner.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Everybody can probably agree that Don-DCI is a smart guy.
And the heads will be great performing heads.

Seems like to me they are going to be more of an upper scale niche/boutique item.
So that must be the target he is banking on.
He probably has enough client base in the 550-600+ hp resto-mod category to cover doing the project.

Roundport 72cc Eddy's dropping to $2200 pair with free shipping is going to strike a blow though.
Black Friday coming up soon too.
Guys not trying to make 550-650hp will more than likely take the savings over the casting numbers and the extra cfm.

That's just my old school opinion.
I don't think the new school and resto-mods even care about block codes and head numbers.
And these probably won't ever get approval by any restricted class racing sanctions.

Wish Don the best with them all the way.
Out of my league

[jhein]

So I watched as much of the new video as I could. He does say that his intake port is designed for high flow but also maintains high velocity even at lower cfm for things like even 350 cid motors. Maybe even more importantly, he eventually says that he wants you to be able to pull off your set of factory iron heads and swap a pair of his heads right back on your motor.

[b-man]

Don is a member here.

He can post whatever info he has on them and then we can all better understand everything about his heads.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by jhein

So I watched as much of the new video as I could. He does say that his intake port is designed for high flow but also maintains high velocity even at lower cfm for things like even 350 cid motors. Maybe even more importantly, he eventually says that he wants you to be able to pull off your set of factory iron heads and swap a pair of his heads right back on your motor.

That's good.... I wonder if the "haters" and "nit pickers" had anything to do with the "bolt on" decision..... Hmmmm